Tribulation Question

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ddavis, Oct 8, 2004.

  1. ddavis

    ddavis
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    According to 2 Thess. 2:11 all the people left on the earth after the Tribulation will believe the lie of the Antichrist. That means no seconded chances as the Left Behind Books like to say, but in Revelation 7:9 – 14 it tells us that people from all nations come out of the Tribulation. If the Tribulation is for the Nation of Israel to complete the 490 Years so that God can bring them back to Him are the people of Revelation 7:9-14 receiving a seconded chance? Israel and Gentiles.
     
  2. James_Newman

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    First off, I think the left behind books are a bit (way) off base with their theology. But take a look at the word.

    2Thes 2
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    This says that the 'they all' is the people who believed not the truth. It doesn't specify what truth, but I believe it is speaking of the truth of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. These are lost people. I don't know if they will be given a second chance at this point, although I'm not God and I don't know the bible nearly as well as I should. But what I do know, is that we are not guaranteed that we will not go into the tribulation.

    Luke 21:36
    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    More to the point, I think we are warned repeatedly that we don't know the day nor the hour when our Lord might return, and we are told that we should be watching for Him to appear. If we are not watching, we may very well be... Left Behind (TM).

    Matthew 24:24
    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    So whether or not unbelievers will get a second chance, we know that there will be saved people in the tribulation, people who are not decieved, people who will become saints by dying for the witness of Jesus Christ, and the word of God. They may have been saved people before the tribulation ever started. Perhaps that is what this verse is referring to:

    Revelation 22
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    I don't know.
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

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    Tomorrow or Sunday, I will answer your question about saved people in the tribulation and the gospel too. I am busy right now. I will answer your question when I will not be busy.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  4. R. J.

    R. J.
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    DDavis & James,

    A very strong biblical case can be made that there are three groups that are saved out of the great tribulation. They are:
    (1) the 144,000 Jewish "preachers"
    (2) the Saints
    (3) the Gentiles

    These three groups (elect) are obviously not given the "strong delusion" by God. One could conclude that they were "blinded" to the "love of the truth" such that they never rejected it. In context, a good case can be made that those receiving the "strong delusion" did hear the preaching of the gospel of the grace of God and REJECTED it. Only God knows for sure.

    If you are inclined to study this topic in detail, there are 4 bible studies at the following link: http://p079.ezboard.com/fthemidweekrapturefrm154
    that give an excellent scriptural view of the "Great Tribulation Believers". Even if you adhere to a different rapture position, the bible studies are well worth your time.

    And, since you both have some disagreements with the Left Behind book series, I have reviewed their apologetic book called "The Truth Behind Left Behind" by Mark Hitchcock and Thomas Ice at the following link: http://p079.ezboard.com/fthemidweekrapturefrm148

    I reviewed the Introduction by Tim LaHaye and the following chapters:
    (1) The Truth Behind the Fiction
    (2) The Rapture
    (6) The Seven Year Tribulation

    My conclusion was that the title of their book should have been "The Suppositions Behind Left Behind". I found in the chapters listed above that the Left Behind "theology" was based upon the SUPPOSITIONS OF MAN rather than the truths manifest in the Holy Scriptures.

    In Christ,

    R. J.
     
  5. PowerndBlood

    PowerndBlood
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    I believe that the bible teaches that after the church is taken out that God's plan is that any gentile who was alive and heard the gospel but turned it down is toast and will be blinded to accept the mark from which there is no forgiveness.

    Children born during that time would be given a fair shake because they NEVER REJECTED Christ.

    Here goes,

    *Ro:11:11: I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    *Ro:11:12: Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?


    The blindness given by God to the jews would then be lifed just as it was from us believing gentiles(now) by believing the "Gospel of the Grace of God" and the gentiles will be blinded and believe a lie.

    Then by hearing the Gospel of the Kingdom(endure until the end)144,000 jewish preachers will do at that time what our pastors do today, preach what God calls for them to do at that time period, converting jews into believers and they will have a rough time doing so but some(elect) will see what is going on and the days will be shortened for their sakes.

    I wish i was better at typing but i'm pitiful, i hope it makes sense to everyone.

    God takes the blindness away from His chosen people and returns it to everyone else when the times of the gentiles is fulfilled.

    *Ro:11:25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    *Ro:11:26: And so all Israel(Gods Israel not every person,imo) shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
     
  6. James_Newman

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    R.J. I havent read all of the stuff at the link that you posted, but part of the basis I saw was that believers in the NT are not sealed in their forehead...

    Revelation 7:3
    Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

    First, how do you know that this sealed is not the same as the sealed in Ephesians?

    Ephesians 4:30
    And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    2nd, does it matter? Obviously the 144 Thousand are Jews, but how does this preclude a believer from being in the tribulation?
     
  7. R. J.

    R. J.
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    A BIG "Amen" to your post, PowerndBlood.

    There is an additional gospel preached late in Daniel's 70th week by the angel. It is the "Everlasting Gospel". It differs from the "Gospel of the Grace of God" AND the "Gospel of the Kingdom" in CONTENT. This gospel is manifest in the following verse:

    Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    In Christ,

    R. J.
     
  8. R. J.

    R. J.
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    Originally posted by James Newman:

    I havent read all of the stuff at the link that you posted, but part of the basis I saw was that believers in the NT are not sealed in their forehead...

    Not the "NT", James, but members of the body of Christ. We are sealed unto redemption by the Holy Spirit indwelling us. That is God's "downpayment" on our inheritance.

    Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

    Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    First, how do you know that this sealed is not the same as the sealed in Ephesians?

    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    The sealing of a member of the body of Christ, as manifest in the verses from Ephesians, is with that "holy Spirit of God".
    The sealing of the 144,000 Jewish preachers, as manifest in the verse from Revelation, is "in their foreheads".
    The only similarity between the two is the word "sealed". Otherwise, they are quite different. Things that are different are not the same.

    2nd, does it matter? Obviously the 144 Thousand are Jews, but how does this preclude a believer from being in the tribulation?

    If by your use of the word "believer", you mean a member of the body of Christ, then the answer is that members of the body of Christ ESCAPE the "sudden destruction" of the Great Tribulation as Paul makes plain in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9.

    If by your use of the word "believer", you mean an elect tribulation saint, then the answer is that there is no preclusion of believers from being in the Great Tribulation.


    P.S. Your question regarding the differences concerning being "sealed" prompts me to recommend a book by Cornelius Stam called "Things That Differ". You can read it free at the following link: www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm

    This book explains the reasons for Pauline dispensationalism of which every believer should be aware.

    As with any book other than the Holy Scriptures, one should not necessarily adhere to everything being taught, but Stam's book is the BASIS for "Pauline dispensational truth", past Darby, Scofield and Larkin.

    Stam erred in that he didn't believe or teach the PRESERVATION of the words of God. This "departure" from the words of truth is manifest within his "false" teachings on water baptism for the believer within the body of Christ. Even so, his book is a "classic" reference book for Pauline dispensational truth.

    In Christ,

    R. J.
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

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    You asked question, about these people in the tribulation period, whose are these as 'saints'?

    You asked about 2 Thess. 2:11. Also, Revelation chapter 7 too.

    I have no problem with them. Understand, 2 Thess. 2:11-12 telling us, that God shall send a strong deceived unto the people because of their NOT believing, and they do not love the truths, and remain in unrighteousness (vs. 10), and also, they stay love in their own pleasure of wicked ways. God ALLOWS Satan to decieved people to believe Satan's lies. Many people shall be deceived for being believing in Satan's works by use miracles and signs, also, he shall be transform into man to be act as Messiah, to decived the world according to Revelation chapter 13.

    What about saints? Rev. 13:10 tells us, Satan shall persecute against Christians, because Christians will reject Satan's work, many Christians will be killed for their witness and testimony for Jesus Christ's sake.

    Revelation chapter 7 does not saying "144,000 of Jewish MALE EVANGELISTS'.

    Revelation chapter 14 explains more clear on the identified of 144,000, whose are they to reveal of chapter 7. Rev. 14:3-4 telling us, they are being REDEEMED from the world. That means, they shall be delivered from the dark into light through Jesus Christ. Also, they shall be redeemed from the sinners. Why? Because it tells us, they which are not defiled with women. Pause on this for a moment. Does verse 4 taking into literally? No. It shows us of the figurative and symbolically of spiritual meaning. It tells us, people who do not do wicked or compromise with the world. 'Women' represent harlot. How does I know of verse 3? We have to read in Revelation chapter 17 and 18. That chapters talking about harlots and Babylon system. Rev. 18:4 commands us, that we ought to be separate from the world, or we shall be judged by God. Alos, Rev. 17:4 tells us, they must be virgins. Being virgin means, to keep our life pure and do not defile with world - wicked and sinful.

    Revelation chapter 14 speaks of 144,000 are represent of us as saints that we are commanded do not compromise with the world, and we shall be delivery out of the world.

    Revelation chapter 7 is a picture of the rapture of the saints. How does I know? 144,000 shall be gathering together right after the 6th seal broken - Rev. 6:12-15 same with Matt. 24:29-30. Notice Rev. 7:1 says, "the FOUR WINDS". That words, 'four winds' find appear three times in the New Testament, these are relate with the second coming- Matt. 24:31; Mark 13:27; and Rev. 7:1. The four winds are four directions of the winds - north, south, west and east. It represent that all saints over the world shall be gathering together - rapture.

    Obivously, the saints will always be present on the earth through great tribulation under the reign of Antichrist till the end of the age follow the second coming of Christ.

    The unbelievers CANNOT be separated from the believers TILL the end of the age comes according to Matt. 13: 28-30; 38-42; and Matt. 25:31-33. Obivously, the unbelievers shall NOT be separated from the believers TILL Jesus Christ shall come with his angels at the end of the age. It is posttribulational coming of Christ.

    The gospel will be remain spread over the world while under the reign of Antichrist till the end of the age comes - Matt. 24:14; and 28:29-30.

    The last person who have the chance to repent of sins by the time angels come to grab people away by in the thief in the night, so, shall be not be being caught into thief.

    2 Cor. 6:2 tells us, behold NOW it is TIME for us to accept and believe the gospel. Once the time comes to past after the harvest, then shall not be saved. 2 Cor. 6:2 have been continuing for nearly 2,000 years since Pentacost day to now, this is a limited time for any person to repent of their sins before too late.

    There is no difference between "church saints" & "tribulation saints" both are on the same boat. 1 Cor. 14:33 tells us, that we are all saints of the CHURCH.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. Michael Hobbs

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    There is a difference between NT saints and Tribulation saints. The New Testament saints are sealed by the Holy Spirit:

    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


    The 144,000 in the Tribulation are sealed by the angels of God:

    Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
    3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


    If the 144,000 were not just Jews but Gentiles as well, why list out each tribe in verses 4 thru 8?
     
  11. Grasshopper

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    144000 represent those 1st century Jews who accepted the messiah and entered into the New Covenant world. 12 (representing the 12 tribes of the Old Covenant) times 12 ( representing the 12 apostles of the New Covenant) times 1000 (a number of perfection and completion).
     
  12. R. J.

    R. J.
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    You must be kidding with your statement quoted above. Not only was the book of Revelation written toward the end of the 1st century but the 144,000 appear in that part of the book which is described as being "things HEREAFTER".

    Your math theory is totally unscriptural. Stick with the BOOK, Grasshopper. You can't go wrong with a bit of Holy Spirit ILLUMINATION straight from the Holy Scriptures.

    In Christ,

    R. J.
     
  13. R. J.

    R. J.
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    Deafposttrib,

    I will insert comments in bold within your quoted post below:

    R. J.
     
  14. wopik

    wopik
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    ddavis
    Where does it say that this is talking about "people left on earth" ?

    Where is that part at ?

    Where does it say "after the Tribulation" in this part of 2Thess. ?

    Are we talking about man's theology, or the Bible ?
     
  15. Grasshopper

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    What is your proof of a late date for Revelation? Read "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry if you would like to study the evidence for the early and late datings of Revelation.

    To put the "hereafter" in context read Rev 1:1 and Rev. 1:3. Pretty clear time-indicators.

    Good advice, use it.
     
  16. Michael Hobbs

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    Grasshopper wrote:
    That's some interesting math, but it doesn't match the verses in Revelation 7 where 12,000 are counted out of 12 tribes.

    The Antichrist can't be revealed until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way (2 Thess. 2:7). Since NT saints are sealed by the Holy Spirit, if He leaves, so do we (i.e. the Rapture).
     
  17. ddavis

    ddavis
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    Wopik ask:
    Where does it say that this is talking about "people left on earth" ? 2 Thess 2:7 The Church is raptured out. So who is left? Those that “believed not the truth”

    Where is that part at ? Read all of 2 Thessalonians.

    Where does it say "after the Tribulation" in this part of 2Thess. ? This is not after the Tribulation, but after the rapture. I’m sorry for putting the word “after” there it should not have been type there,.

    Are we talking about man's theology, or the Bible ? It’s the Bible’s theology and I think by reading the text even with the way I worded it others knew that.
     
  18. PowerndBlood

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    These verses fit like a glove as well,

    2Th:2:4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


    ties in with,

    M't:24:15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

    M't:24:21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    M't:24:22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
     
  19. James_Newman

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    Your assuming that 2Thes 2:7 means all Christians will be taken. Then where does watching and praying to be accounted worthy come in? Jesus was just filling in some white space in the bible?
     
  20. PowerndBlood

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    James, you really should look into WHO Christ was talking to when He spoke and why He as the King of the Jews, not gentiles.

    If your boss at any job wrote a note and told someone that they could have a week off would you take a week off just because you read the note, even though He wasn't talking to you and if you did what would happen?

    That is exactly whay you are trying to do with what Christ said to His chosen people, before the cross.

    *hint- Paul was talking to you and me, let's get the milk down first and then we can move on to the meat.
     

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