Tribulation Question

ddavis

Thanks for your reply. I am not a believer in the pretrib rapture, but I do like to try and understand how you folks see scripture.

 

Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

We are allowed to be partakers of the promises of God to His chosen people because of Christ.

I don't think you would know where to find the milk. [hint: It's in 1Cor 3]

 

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
*(don't think that you stand on anything but what Christ did, not yourself)

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

*(His goodness = Calvary and a free gift to all that believe)


James, they fell by unbelief, i don't think outside of brain damage that ANY BORN AGAIN Christian has to worry about failing to believe in Calvary and even if that were the case what would you do with a verse like this?

*2Tm:2:13: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

See what a mess we run into?

We can play verse tennis all day and still not get anywhere but making lost people wonder what in the world is going on and why does the bible seem to contridict itself by saying one place it faith only and in another faith plus works.

Do a study on "free gift" and see what that means.

***Let's see what Paul asked and told some others that thought they had to do something(good works) to keep it or improve upon it, he only wanted to teach them one thing, here goes, just sub your name or anyone elses for the word Galatians and see if that helps you get my point.

*Ga:3:1: O foolish Galatians(you/me), who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

*Ga:3:2: This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

*Ga:3:3: Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

*Ga:3:4: Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.


*ps, i found all the milk i need at the foot of the cross.

 

One more shot,

*Ro:5:18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

*Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


1 - Adam's disobedience causes all to fall short and deserve hell

2 - Christ's obedience causes all to go to Heaven that believe in Him

"by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." That is Christ not me or you, His obedience is given to me just as Adams disobedience was.

Our obedience(in a sin cursed body) would/could never be good enough to deserve Heaven so God made a way and our obedience(after new birth) has to do with rewards, health, joy, peace and everything BUT SALVATION.

My life nailed Him to the cross and His life assured me of being perfect in God's eyes when it comes to being fit to enter Heaven, great trade!

 

You have turned faith into a magic power, Powernd. The Israelites fell because of unbelief. What did they fail to believe? That Christ died for their sins? There is not one belief that covers every situation that requires faith. The unbelief of the Israelites had to do with not believing that God was going to cause them to obtain victory over the giants.

Now like you, I believe once-saved-always-saved, by free grace alone, through faith alone. Believe that Jesus died for you and you will be raised up on the last day. But every warning that Jesus spoke in the sermon on the mount was directed at you and me, brother. Every time Christ said that sins would keep someone from inheritting the kingdom of God, he meant that to be applied to you and me.

Can you fornicate? Can you commit adultery? The bible says if you even look at a woman to lust you have committed adultery. So by what right do we say that all the promises in the bible are for me, but all the warnings are for the jews? If we commit adultery, we will not inherit the kingdom. God is not a man, that He should lie.

We must rightly divide, by understanding the difference between the gift and the rewards. The gift of eternal salvation means we will be raised up on the last day. We will not be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity with the unsaved, but will spend eternity with our Lord. But the 1000 year kingdom is a reward for obedience. We are told, as Christians, to seek the kingdom. We are not required to do this for our salvation. We are only able to do this BECAUSE OF our salvation.

 

James, i'm glad to hear you believe in salvation the way you stated it and faith is a magic power, faith keeps me from hell and waiting on the Lord to return.

Now for the comments i keep making about the jews that Christ was talking to.

Let's pretend(since you do not believe this) that the body of Christ(church) is called up to meet the Lord in the air and after that the free gift is no longer offered and the times of the gentiles is fulfilled.God starts dealing with jews for rejecting their King.

Then the antichrist shows up and many believe him when he claims to be God.

*Joh:5:43: I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

People that were on the right track can mess up and burn, just as stated in matt, james and hebrews, as a matter of fact when you mess up in hebrews you are finished and can do nothing about it.

*Heb:10:26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb:10:27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Then, the verses that people try to teach that a "born again" believer can lose his salvation come into play and people that didn't walk the straight and narrow would lose it and go to hell.

It all hinges on the church being taken out or we can lose it, that is for sure.


The bible teaches that salvation can be lost and at the same time it teaches that it can't, we better find out how both can be true or we make God a liar.

It is all true at certain time periods ONLY!

You can not have a free gift(faith only) and by works(james2) also at the same time, just doesn't keep the word true, just as you can't be saved from wrath and then go through the tribulation.

 

So what will you believe if you get left behind in the rapture? Not that you believe that could happen. But if it did, what would that do to your interpretation?

 

If i'm left behind i am toast because i wasn't truly born again and the free gift is over.

During that time after turning up my nose at the cross and not accepting Christ's payment for me, i get to make the payment my self.

Alot of the jews will fall to satan at this time(remember that some were blinded now in order for the blessing to come to the gentiles)and without God's seal even those elect need the days shortened in order to help them endure til the end(matt 24:13).

James, i have thought this over and over so many times to be sure about it(in my heart)because my soul depends on it and i have came up with this way of looking at it.It works for me.

God chose me or i couldn't come to Him in the first place, He lived the life that He requires of me in order to be considered blameless before Him.

After i believed, in God's eyes i am considered His son and get credit for the life that Christ lived on earth, i am perfect in that the blood covered and hid my life from God.(i'm talking spiritually, i know you reap what you sow on earth and that God is not mocked)

My soul is now sinless but my rotten flesh is dying a little more every day.


If commiting ANY sin sends me to hell, will stopping that sin get me to heaven? the answer is NO, unless it's the sin of rejecting Jesus.


If rejecting Christ will send me to hell, will accepting Him get me to heaven? ding, ding, ding we have the only answer that fits, nothing else will work and still be called a free gift.

 

forgot to add,

"The Israelites fell because of unbelief. What did they fail to believe? That Christ died for their sins? "

They fell because they didn't believe that Christ was their KING before He died and that He rose from the dead after He died.

The jews are still looking for their King to come the first time.

 

Deafposttrib,

This is a re-post to distinguish my comments from yours.

I will insert comments in bold within your quoted post below:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Understand, 2 Thess. 2:11-12 telling us, that God shall send a strong deceived unto the people because of their NOT believing, and they do not love the truths, and remain in unrighteousness (vs. 10), and also, they stay love in their own pleasure of wicked ways. God ALLOWS Satan to decieved people to believe Satan's lies. God does ALLOW Satan to deceive UNBELIEVERS, but, in the case of 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, God send them the "strong delusion" Himself. Many people shall be deceived for being believing in Satan's works by use miracles and signs, also, he shall be transform into man to be act as Messiah, to decived the world according to Revelation chapter 13.

What about saints? Rev. 13:10 tells us, Satan shall persecute against Christians, because Christians will reject Satan's work, many Christians will be killed for their witness and testimony for Jesus Christ's sake.

This flies in the face of the Holy Scriptures. The Lord Jesus Christ's own words as revealed to the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5 REFUTE your claim that "Christians" suffer the wrath of Satan during the Great Tribulation.

Revelation chapter 7 does not saying "144,000 of Jewish MALE EVANGELISTS'.

Another "half truth", Deafposttrib. They:
(1) are 144,000 in number [Revelation 7:4]
(2) are from "all the tribes of the children of Israel" making them Jewish [Revelation 7:4]
(3) "were not defiled with women; for they are virgins" makig them MALE [Revelation 14:4]
(4) are part of the "remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ" making them EVANGELISTS.

Revelation chapter 14 explains more clear on the identified of 144,000, whose are they to reveal of chapter 7. Rev. 14:3-4 telling us, they are being REDEEMED from the world. That means, they shall be delivered from the dark into light through Jesus Christ. Also, they shall be redeemed from the sinners. Why? Because it tells us, they which are not defiled with women. Pause on this for a moment. Does verse 4 taking into literally? No. It shows us of the figurative and symbolically of spiritual meaning. It tells us, people who do not do wicked or compromise with the world. 'Women' represent harlot. How does I know of verse 3? We have to read in Revelation chapter 17 and 18. That chapters talking about harlots and Babylon system. Rev. 18:4 commands us, that we ought to be separate from the world, or we shall be judged by God. Alos, Rev. 17:4 tells us, they must be virgins. Being virgin means, to keep our life pure and do not defile with world - wicked and sinful.

This is a "private interpretation" that spiritualizes several things that have literal meaning. You are also mistaken regarding your quote of Revelation 17:4. Assuming you meant Revelation 14:4, you CAN NOT apply what was stated concerning the 144,000 to anyone other than that numbered group.

Revelation chapter 14 speaks of 144,000 are represent of us as saints that we are commanded do not compromise with the world, and we shall be delivery out of the world.

Revelation chapter 14 says NOTHING OF THE KIND. This is simply another "spiritualization" on your part, Deafposttrib. You are on a slippery slope and have need to weigh carefully 2 Peter 3:16. You are wresting the scriptures to support your "system".

Revelation chapter 7 is a picture of the rapture of the saints. How does I know? 144,000 shall be gathering together right after the 6th seal broken - Rev. 6:12-15 same with Matt. 24:29-30. Notice Rev. 7:1 says, "the FOUR WINDS". That words, 'four winds' find appear three times in the New Testament, these are relate with the second coming- Matt. 24:31; Mark 13:27; and Rev. 7:1. The four winds are four directions of the winds - north, south, west and east. It represent that all saints over the world shall be gathering together - rapture.

More spiritualization, wresting (2 Peter 3:16) and wrong division (2 Timothy 2:15).

Obivously, the saints will always be present on the earth through great tribulation under the reign of Antichrist till the end of the age follow the second coming of Christ.

Again, this flies in the face of the Holy Scriptures. The Lord Jesus Christ own words, as revealed to the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5, REFUTE what you have just stated. Why do you insist on OVERTHROWING what the Lord Jesus taught you? Don't you BELIEVE the WORDS of Jesus? You continually quote Jesus' words that were TO the nation of Israel and ignore His words TO Christians.

The unbelievers CANNOT be separated from the believers TILL the end of the age comes according to Matt. 13: 28-30; 38-42; and Matt. 25:31-33. Obivously, the unbelievers shall NOT be separated from the believers TILL Jesus Christ shall come with his angels at the end of the age. It is posttribulational coming of Christ.

More WRONG DIVISION of the words of truth. The gospel of Matthew manifests the Lord Jesus Christ's ministry TO the nation of Israel. Jesus' instructions to members of the body of Christ are manifest in His words to the apostle Paul (Romans - Philemon).

The gospel will be remain spread over the world while under the reign of Antichrist till the end of the age comes - Matt. 24:14; and 28:29-30.

Another "half truth". The gospel of the grace of God will spread over the world UNTIL the gathering of the body of Christ BEFORE the Great Tribulation. The gospel of the kingdom will be preached, AGAIN, during the Great Tribulation followed by the preaching of the "everlasting gospel" by the angel.

The last person who have the chance to repent of sins by the time angels come to grab people away by in the thief in the night, so, shall be not be being caught into thief.

Your statement borders on incoherent but does make an interesting point. It is ANGELS that "grab people away" at the gathering to which you refer. That is one of several things that DISTINGUISH that gathering FROM the gathering of the body of Christ.

2 Cor. 6:2 tells us, behold NOW it is TIME for us to accept and believe the gospel. Once the time comes to past after the harvest, then shall not be saved. 2 Cor. 6:2 have been continuing for nearly 2,000 years since Pentacost day to now, this is a limited time for any person to repent of their sins before too late.

There are several SUBTLE, but incorrect, references to your post-tribulation position, Deafposttrib. You are guilty of trying to SYNTHESIZE "harvest" into Paul's epistle. The harvests spoken of in the gospels and Revelation DO NOT concern members of the body of Christ. This, again, is to what Peter referred when he spoke of WRESTING the scriptures (2 Peter 3:16).

There is no difference between "church saints" & "tribulation saints" both are on the same boat. 1 Cor. 14:33 tells us, that we are all saints of the CHURCH.

"Church saints" DO NOT go into the Great Tribulation. "Tribulation saints" DO. You continue to OVERTHROW the teachings of the Lord Jesus as manifest in 1 Thessalonians 5.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

R. J.

 

Michael Hobbs,

I agree with your position "in principle" but disagree with this specific SUPPOSITION:

The Antichrist can't be revealed until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way (2 Thess. 2:7). Since NT saints are sealed by the Holy Spirit, if He leaves, so do we (i.e. the Rapture).

This SUPPOSITION is classic pre-trib (more definitively, pre-sorrows [see Matthew 24:8]). It CAN NOT be supported by any scripture. This SUPPOSITION is a corollary to the greater SUPPOSITION that the CONTEXT of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the unscriptural "seven year TRIBULATION" rather than the GATHERING.

When one "gets" the CONTEXT of 2 Thessalonians 2 as the GATHERING by understanding the difference between the "day of the Lord" and the "day of Christ", one then has an oxymoron (i.e. contradiction) with the Holy Spirit being the "restrainer". The contradiction is that the rapture can not occur until the rapture occurs.

If one accepts the premise that the CONTEXT of 2 Thessalonians 2 is the GATHERING, then one has to look elsewhere for the "restrainer". Here is a scriptural case for a better choise. It is the Antichrist, AS A MAN, who is "taken out of the way" by being "wounded to death". This MAN is resurrected AS SATAN INCARNATE. That's who is being REVEALED as the "man of sin", the "son of perdition", "that Wicked". Paul's MYSTERY of iniquity is revealed by the apostle John in Revelation 17:7-18.

In Christ,

R. J.

 

PowerndBlood,

Remember this quote in the O. J. Simpson trial, "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit."

That is the case with your tying 2 Thessalonians 2:4 to the Abomination of Desolation. They are close in timing BUT ARE NOT THE SAME. Here is a link to a detailed bible study on the Abomination of Desolation that might clear it up for you:

http://p079.ezboard.com/fthemidweekrapturefrm91.showMessage?topicID=9.topic

It's a bit of a "read" which has 4 posts within the topic. If you are inclined, take a look. There is a "Questions & Comments" category where you can post. The bible studies themselves are "read only". The site if FREE so stop in and say "Hello".

In Christ,

R. J.

 

In agreement with your good analogy, PowerndBlood. Jesus' words as revealed to the apostle Paul are what members of the body of Christ GO BY.

James, as a Gentile, please explain why you don't APPLY these words of Jesus to yourself:

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Of course, you wouldn't apply them to yourself UNLESS you have spiritualized the nation of Israel to be the "body of Christ". This is a premise of "Covenant Theology" with which most Baptists do not follow.

In Christ,

R. J.

 

Great teaching, Powerndblood. God bless you.

Your friend in Christ,

R. J.

 

R.J., thanks for the link, i took the time to read it all and i must admit that i cannot find fault in it and it set well with my soul as i read it.

I also must admit that i do not read others opinions in books and things very much, i just pray, read my bible and trust that God will give me what i prayed for(truth 1st), sorry about missing the mark on the post about the glove you pointed out, i hope most can see how closely those things are related and that i meant no harm, i missed the image and mistook it for the man, sorry and thanks again.

Great link and i learned from it,

Chris in Christ,

 

R.J. Good job on the Antichrist as the one taken out of the way, it fits much better than trying to insert something from outside the context wheather you are Pre. or Post. I struggled with that context for several years knowing it couldn't be the Spirit but not sure if it was the Antichrist or something else. I finally came to the same conclusion as you have.
In Christ,
Geno

 

Reading 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7 is not difficult for us.

Apostle Paul tells us, do not let any person deceive us of any teachings about the timing of our gathering together/day of Christ. Our gathering together/day of Christ shall not come till the first of two things we must face: 1. falling away(apostasy) 2. Revealed of Antichrist in 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

2 Thess. 2:5-7 - Paul tells us, we should know, what thing that hold him back- speak of Antichrist is now being holding back. 'He' of 2 Thess 2:6 & 7 speak of Antichrist context with verse 3 - "man of sin", not talk about Holy Spirit.

Pretrib teaches 2 Thess. 2:7 that the Holy Spirit shall be leave out "out of the way". But, Paul does not saying, 'he' is the Holy Spirit.

Paul tells, Antichrist is now holding back, and Antichrist cannot be loose out, God does not allow him to be revealed, because it is not his time yet(vs. 6). God knows when the right time to come, then God will allow him to be revealed. Paul tells us, Antichrist shall be loosed out ('out of the way(midst)'-vs. 7) as it means, he shall be removed from the mystery, and then he shall be revealed - vs. 8.

So, therefore, the teaching of Paul of 2 Thess. 2:1-8 cannot be pretribulational. It telling us, our gathering together(vs. 1) cannot be occur yet till we must face apostasy first and the revealed of antichrist.

By the way, many pretrib teachers saying 'falling away' of vs.3 speak of rapture. Because of they adopted Dr. Scuyler English's teaching on'falling away' is rapture back in year around 1950's. He said, 'falling away' is departure, so, it means the departure of the saints is rapture.

Greek does not support Dr. English's teaching. Greek of 'falling away' is 'apostasia means, depart from the faith, depart from truth according to 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:1-7; & 2 Tim. 4:3-4.

Departure never support the idea meaning of rapture. In fact, all Greek dictionaries never support the idea meaning of 'apostasia' is rapture.

Apostle Paul clearly tells us, the day of Christ is not yet arrived(vs. 2) and do not believe anyone telling us that day of Christ is arrived, our gathering together/day of Christ shall not come till we shall face apostasy first and the revealed of Antichrist.

Also, day of the Lord is same as day of Christ.

Many pretrib teachers saying both are different and event. No verse in the Bible saying both are different.

Day of the Lord is the second coming.
Day of Christ is the second coming.

Day of the Lord is for the judgement day at Lord's coming to judge the world in his wrath.

Same with day of Christ is the day when Christ comes to judge us. 1 Cor. 1:7-8; and Phil. 1:6,10

Later, I will discuss more about the day of the Lord.

I am sure, Carl will discuss on it, as he speaks of three different times of Christ's coming about 'sun'. I heard Carl's comment on 'sun'.

Later, I will talk about 'sun' with verses as what Carl quoted them.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib

John was "in vision" during the Day of the Lord, or as he refers to it: the Lord's Day -- Rev 1:10 --- when the sun will be darkened and the moon will appear as blood.

 

I understand of Rev. 1:10 is not speak of the day of the Lord, John tells us, he was in the "Spirit" on the Lord's day. It talks about the revelation of Jesus Christ. In that year around 95 A.D., John was on Patmos Island, in THAT DAY, John received the revelation comes from jesus Christ through the vision. Rev. 1:10 do nothing with the second coming, we know that.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

the Lord's Day is simply another way of saying Sunday-- i.e the day Christ was resurrected.