Tribulation

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Nov 20, 2004.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip
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    I know this has been hashed, rehashed, again and again. I could not find the thread. If someone wants to just point me to the thread that is fine, otherwise, we can discuss it.

    Some say nobody can be saved during the tribulation.

    Some people say during the tribulation, the Jews are saved.

    What's the scripture and what's the truth?

    Never was good at interpreting prophecy.
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    The following was written by Ed.
    They have appeared elsewhere on this BB
    (but are probably now in the archives):

    --------------------------
    The Five Tribulations
    of the Holy Bible
    Contrasted and compared
    by ed

    The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
    tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
    WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
    affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
    misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
    anguish, torment, adversity,
    travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
    famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
    WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
    to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
    God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
    maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
    few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
    gift of martyrdom


    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
    (from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

    4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
    WHO: citizens of the world
    WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
    WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
    WHAT: the wrath of God
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
    Period found in the O.T.:

    The tribulation in Deut 4:30
    the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
    the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
    the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
    The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
    The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
    The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
    The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
    The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
    See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:


    "tribulations" in KJV:

    1Sa 10:19 (nKJV):
    But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, 'No, set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans."

    3,000 years before the Tribulation Period, has to be:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition

    Ac 14:22 (nKJV):
    strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

    The Kingdom of God is with us, not all are persecuted,
    must be the most likly:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition

    Ac 20:23 (nKJV):
    except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
    And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

    Most likely: Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition

    2Co 6:4 (nKJV):
    But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    Eph 3:13 (nKJV):
    Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

    Most likely: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    2Th 1:4 (nKJV):
    so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    Heb 10:33 (nKJV):
    partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    "tribulation" in nKJV:

    1Sa 26:24 (nKJV):
    And indeed, as your life was valued much this day in my eyes, so let my life be valued much in the eyes of the Lord, and let Him deliver me out of all tribulation."

    1. tribulation due to the human condition&gt;
    surley not 3,000+ years before futurists Trib Period
    or 1,000+ years before before a-mill Trib Period

    Mt 13:21 (nKJV):
    yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

    Most likely:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition

    Mt 24:9 (nKJV):
    Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

    Got to be:
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    Mt 24:21 (nKJV):
    For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    This follows the AOD, it is: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist


    Mt 24:29 (nKJV):
    "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

    After 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist, the Lord will come in power and glory to
    defeat the Antichrist.

    Mr 4:17 (nKJV):
    and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.

    Most likely: 2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom, which is persecution

    Mr 13:19 (nKJV):
    For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

    This is a paralell Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passage
    refering to: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

    Mr 13:24 (nKJV):
    "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

    MOD, again: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

    Joh 16:33 (nKJV):
    These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

    One of these: 1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    but not: 4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
    5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

    Ro 2:9 (nKJV):
    tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

    Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
    And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

    Most likely, 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happen to everybody

    Ro 8:35 (nKJV):
    Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    Could be any of the first three

    Ro 12:12 (nKJV):
    rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

    Most likely,m 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happens to everybody

    2Co 1:4 (nKJV):
    who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

    Most likely is the most common: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

    2Co 7:4 (nKJV):
    Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    Paul was NOT in the tribulation periods.

    1Th 3:4 (nKJV):
    For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

    Paul suffered from the three conditions:
    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods:



    2Th 1:6 (nKJV):
    since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

    Why should God wait until the Tribulation Periods
    to "repay"? Probably: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

    Re 1:9 (nKJV):
    I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods

    Re 2:9 (nKJV):
    I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


    Re 2:10 (nKJV):
    Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

    Likely: Could be any of the first three:
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    Re 2:22 (nKJV):
    Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

    Likely 1. tribulation due to the human condition

    Re 7:14 (nKJV):
    And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist.
    These avoid great tribulation by being jerked out
    of the world when Jesus comes to get His own.
     
  3. Phillip

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    This is good Ed, Thank you. I'm going to print it out and see if I can get it in my head.

    Rev. 7:14 I have always taken to answer "yes" (as shown in the bottom of your post.)

    The entire post is great. It will help fit things together.

    Thanks again!
     
  4. OldRegular

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    People have always been saved during tribulation. Jesus Christ tells us in John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. The people of God have always undergone tribulation and will until Jesus Christ returns in Power and great Glory at the Last Day when the General Resurrection and Judgment will occur [John 5:28, 29].

    A little history of the Church: Out of the brutal persecution of Christians by Imperial Rome was born the saying of Tertullian: The blood of the Christians is the seed of the Church.
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Christ teaches us, the gospel must be continue spread over the world till the end comes in Matt. 24:14. Also, Christ tells us, the gospel must be continue spreading over the world till the end of the world/age comes - Matt. 28:19-20.

    Yes, the gospel will be still open and oppurunity for everyone of the world to hear and have chnace during great tribulation. Once Christ comes, then the oppurunity of the gospel will be finished - 1 Cor. 6:2, and there shall be no other chance of salvation after Christ coming according to Matt. 25:11-13.

    Revelation chapter 7 is a big misunderstanding among baptists today. Revelation chapter 7 say nothing of 144,000 'Jewish Evangelists'. The context of Revelation chapter 7 telling us, there shall be harvest of the saints at the end of the age by follow after the sixth seal broken shall be immediately after tribulation. Revelation chapter 7 is much same as chapter 14 talking about the harvest of the saints.

    Obivous and overwhelming there are so many verses in the Bible teaching us, that we must go through tribulations because Jesus Christ suffered for us, so, therefore, we ought follow Christ's example according to 1 Peter 2:21.

    Word, 'pretribulation rapture' is no sense to me, because, the history telling us, Church already experinced many tribulations that they already through them, so, it CANNOT be 'PREtribulation rapture. Bible teaches us, our gathering together must be occured right after Church go through so many tribulations first.

    The teaching of pretribulationism doctrine is so flaws and holes, it have lot of errors. These are conflict with God's word.

    300 years ago of Christians would not agree with you on pretribulation rapture, because they already experinced many tribulations.

    I don't care what Ed Edwards saying on several different meanings of 'tribulation'. Actually, all of these are same meaning, we know that.

    Late Corrie ten Boom warned, America will be the next last country to face the coming persecution. Because she already experinced persecution by Nazi soldiers during World War II. She was thrown in the concentration camp with Jews. She won Jews to Christ. She realized, that she suffered for Christ's sake.

    I agree with her. She was right.

    We better be prepared for the coming persecutions, because Corrie ten Boom and other Christians already faced in the past. Do not be fear of any persecutions according to Matt. 10:28, because Christ already overcome them, we should be cheer while facing tribulations - John 16:33.

    Yes, we must go through tribulations first before Christ comes - Matt. 24:29-31; John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Romans 5:3-4; 1 Thess. 3:3-4; 2 Thess. 1:3-7; etc. So, therefore, the teaching of Bible cannot be prettribulational. Because Christ tells us that He shall come after tribulation according to Matt. 24:29.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    This topic is found at:

    BaptistBoard.com
    » Baptist DEBATE Forums (Baptist Only)
    » Baptist Theology & Bible Study
    » Tribulation

    Note i have put emphasis upon DEBATE
    It is a debate. The "rules" of debate apply.

    Generally one debater makes statements.
    The other debater counters those statemetns
    and mades statements of their own.

    I note that certain debaters here do not or cannot
    understand that if you agree with one element of
    anothers points you do NOT have to agree with all there
    points. I have come out in favor of a pretriulation rapture,
    a premillinnial Second Advent of Jesus, and a Dispensational
    viewpoint. My regular opponent doesn't even understand
    my meaning. Here "tribulation" refers to a time period,
    not a human condition.

    DeafPosttrib: //I don't care what Ed Edwards saying on several
    different meanings of 'tribulation'. Actually, all
    of these are same meaning, we know that.//

    Not only does Brother DPT have ignorance (don't care) he has
    ignorance (don't know). Three of the five "tribulation"s above
    are human conditions, two "tribulation"s above
    are time periods.

    I cannot believe that anyone will be impressed by
    attemts to dis my ten screen essay with "I don't care".

    While i'm griping, hear this:

    I'm the one who has to clarify what Brother DPT belives.

    Ed's belief outlined:
    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
    1. rapture/resurrection
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth


    DPT's belief outlined:
    Postrib a-mill outline:

    0. church age continues - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
    2. Tribulation time - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
    4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;-- you are here
    1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    (this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
    5. new heaven & new earth

    Again, Brother DPT can only debate at the top level.
    Unknown to him, i can go way deeper in detail,
    but it is more than my brother can bear. Nevertheless:

    ------------------------------------
    This prewritten note was written by Ed:
    --------------------------------------
    Expanded pretrib timeline:

    0. church age continues

    1. rapture/resurrection

    2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

    2a. Starting events
    2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty

    2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
    2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
    2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
    ---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
    2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
    2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
    2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
    2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
    ----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

    2c. the mid-tribulation events
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
    2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
    2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
    2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
    2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
    2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
    2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
    2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8)
    2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
    2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18)
    2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
    2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
    ----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
    2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
    ----- (Rev 12:1-6)

    2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
    2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
    ---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
    2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

    2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
    ------- (Rev 16:12-16)
    2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
    ------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18)
    2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
    ------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
    2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
    2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
    ------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

    (2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
    ---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
    3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
    - 19:20-22!
    3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

    5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

    6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

    7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

    8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

    9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

    10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
    and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!
    -------------------------------------------------------

    If anyone is interested, we can all learn here past the
    basics? Yet our local postribulation rapture, a-millinnial
    Coming of Jesus, Historist position will argue the higest
    level of the argument and ignore the lower level arguments.

    Please note that there are other last things positions
    and we have discussed only two. There are more than two
    views, it would be nice to get into some of the other
    viewpoints. Such an interesting discussion is at:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/2845.html?
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Ed,

    I have three simple questions for you.

    1# Question: Show me where a verse in the Bible saying, Christ shall come before tribulation?

    2# Question: Show me where a verse in the Bible saying, Rapture will be occured 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before Christ's coming?

    3# Question: What 'last day' of John 6:39,40,44, & 54 mean to you?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    DPT: //3# Question: What 'last day' of John 6:39,40,44, & 54 mean to you?//

    It is the seven year tribulation period
    (item #4 on the second post).
    The last days are the Gentile Age
    also known as (AKA): Church Age. The
    last days started at the day of Pentacost
    33AD and extend to the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection. The last day
    starts at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    and ends the 48-hr day of the Second
    Advent of Jesus to destory the antichrist.

    What does this mean:
    "Yisrael dispersed among the goy" ?

    DPT: "1# Question: Show me where a verse in the Bible saying, Christ shall come before tribulation?"

    It is wrong for you to demand of God what
    his written word, the Bible should say.
    The Bible does not say "Christ shall
    come before the tribulation", however,
    the statement is true. The Bible does not
    say "you can use velcro to hold your shoe
    on", nevertheless, my shoe has NOT fallen
    off yet though held on by velcro.

    DPT: "# Question: Show me where a verse in the Bible saying, Rapture will be occured 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before Christ's coming?"

    I've told you this in seven topics still
    on this forum.
    I've told you this in seven topics moved
    to the archives.
    I've fulfilled the requirement to tell
    you seven plus seven. It is no up to you
    to accept it OR argue against the wealth
    of details i've used. It does not do anything
    for you argument to ask this question
    over and over again, bleating like a sick
    goat.

    You reject a wealth of insite into the
    future plans of God because you can't take
    the first step because God didn't choose
    to word it like you demand. Sorry, God
    isn't your slaveboy.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Ed,

    That is your own logical. Where's verse to support your logical?

    The problem is, John 6:39,40,44, & 54, do not saying there shall be 2,555 days or 365,000 days apart within 'last day'. "Last day", simple means, a final single day of the age. You know that.

    You still not yet answer my questions. You have to prove me a verse to support pretrib rapture.

    I am waiting for you to prove me.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs
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    First let me point out 2 Peter 3:8
    But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    From Acts 2:17 and Hebrews 1:2, we know we are in the 'last days'. These last days simply refer to the 'Church age'. So, even if the day Jesus referred to is a single 24 hr. period, then the promise is fulfilled in the Rapture which ends the 'Church age'.

    Can you provide a verse that shows the Church on earth during the 7 yr Tribulation period?
     
  11. Warren

    Warren
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    [non-Baptist posting in Baptist-only forum]

    [ November 24, 2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Warren,

    Does the history telling us, there is any record, that a person already see Jesus Christ come with his angels in the sky in year 70 A.D.?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  13. Plain Old Bill

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    Ed I think I love you.You have put this together well. You always do. When someone does not have a legitimate arguement they critisize.
     
  14. av1611jim

    av1611jim
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    Um...Warren?
    You missed something I might point out.
    I noticed you skipped right over vs 21. this is the point your argument falls apart.
    "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor, ever shall be."

    Are you trying to pretend this happened also? If so then you must think the Holocaust in Europe to have been not as bad?

    And you also miss vs. 22
    And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.

    Was the conquest of Titus so horrible that it threatened the extenction of all flesh? That's what Jesus said here; all flesh. No flesh saved means all flesh dead.

    You also missed vs 29-31
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    And then shall appear the sign of the son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    I find it incredible that you believe this all happened in 70 A.D. For if you believe the tribulation of those days were fulfilled then you must also accept that Jesus came again in 70 A.D. for he said immediately after those things happened we would see Him come agian in the clouds, even as the angel told the disciples in Acts 1.

    Sir, I submit, your position is untenable. Unless of course you would spiritualize the one while trying to maintain a literal rendering of the other.

    In His service;
    Jim
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    Warren has posted a great deal in the Other Religion Forum on preterism. I am too busy in administration to take time to deal with issues there in a place I don't moderate, but would encourage any HERE to go and join the debate.

    They need some Baptist input!! And boy, I hated to "snip" a non-baptist post that would lead to such debate, but trying to follow the rules.
     
  16. OldRegular

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    You asked the question of Ed but I will give my opinion.

    1. The Bible does not teach that Jesus Christ shall return before the"so-called tribulation". In fact Scripture teaches a General Resurrection and Judgment in John 5:28, 29.

    2&3. The Bible speaks of only one Second Coming of Jesus Christ, that is on the Last Day. There will be no secret "rapture" with pilotless planes falling out of the sky or driverless vehicles running off the road. There will be no Left Behind. The concept of the pre-trib rapture is based on faulty interpretation of one of the most obscure passages of Scripture, Daniel 9:27.
     
  17. James_Newman

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    Here in Revelation Jesus Christ is likened to the morning star.

    Revelation 2
    26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
    28 And I will give him the morning star.
    29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Revelation 22
    16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    But in Malachi, He is the Sun of righteousness.

    Malachi 4:2
    But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

    The morning star comes quietly, just before dawn. Only those that are watching see it. The sun, on the other hand, who can miss it? This could typify two comings, one secret coming to those who are watching for Him, and another coming before all in His glory. Also we are told to watch and pray to escape all these things which will come to pass. I think Daniel 9:27 may be used to support a 7 year tribulation, but has nothing to do with the rapture. I don't necessarily hold to the 7 year tribulation, probably longer.
     
  18. DeafPosttrib

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    James,

    These passages, as you show us, 'morning star' have do nothing with the timing of Christ's coming. This is Christ's names. Christ have so many names such as about 300 different names. Your argue of these passages have do nothing with the timing of Christ's coming.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  19. James_Newman

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    I said could typify, I didn't say you should base your belief in the rapture on them. It is just an interesting note for those of us who do look for our Lord to return before the tribulation to take those who are watching and praying.
     
  20. Phillip

    Phillip
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    In the words of "Goose" in the movie Top Gun: "This gets GOOD!" :D
     

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