Trichotomy

But the Bible doesn't make that distinction, at least it doens't make it clearly. It, in fact, uses the terms interchangeably in places.

The Matthew reference is 22:37: Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

 

I find this a rather odd statement considering the medical research that is being done on the physiology of spiritual experiences, including regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

I find this a rather odd statement considering the medical research that is being done on the physiology of spiritual experiences, including regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

 

Pastor Larry, I realize that it's not "cut and dry" concerning the the biblical distinctions of the material/immaterial components of man.

My tripartite view is not a strong conviction but a position of choice based on those verses which I posted.

There are other indications in the Scripture but as I said this is not a doctrine that I pursue into a debate.

Besides, I have work related study to attend to tonight and early AM tomorrow as I am bidding on a software contract.

Thanks for your input.


HankD

 

Larry, does Hebrews 4:12 indicate that Scripture divides between soul and spirit? That is actually the verse I always kind of used to make the distinction, though it isn't much of one.

 

No, it does not, but when I am cooking a batch of spaghetti for a church luncheon, I don’t rely on just the Bible for the recipe!

 

I find this a rather odd statement considering the medical research that is being done on the physiology of spiritual experiences, including regeneration by the Holy Spirit. </font>[/QUOTE]So? I see absolutely no relevance when the Bible has already spoken.

 

No. Heb 4:12 refers to the innermost part of man. It is a hebraistic metaphor for the core of man's being. The word penetrates completely into the soul of man to bring about change.

 

No, it does not, but when I am cooking a batch of spaghetti for a church luncheon, I don’t rely on just the Bible for the recipe!</font>[/QUOTE]I would hope not, but theology should not be equated with cooking. When you cook, use a book written for that purpose. When you do theology, use the book revealed for that purpose. The question is not "What can the mind of man come up with?" The question is, "What does the word of God say?"

As I have said, there is nothing at stake here so it is not a big deal. I think it is a big deal when we assign certain aspects to the body, soul, and spirit as Michelle did. That leads to bad theology and practice. But overall, whether man is two or three parts makes no difference.

 

I agree with Pastor Larry on this one. Don't see any biblical reason for creating a difference between the soul and spirit.

 

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As I have said, there is nothing at stake here so it is not a big deal. I think it is a big deal when we assign certain aspects to the body, soul, and spirit as Michelle did. That leads to bad theology and practice. But overall, whether man is two or three parts makes no difference.
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If God has talked about it, and made a distinction, to which he has, then it most definately is important. You claim how I understand it, is dangerous and leads to bad theology. Please explain. Please use scripture in order to show that I am wrong as you so claim. We are to reason one another with the scriptures, remember? It is not up to your own judgement or interpretation. If our bodies have nothing whatsoever to do with the image of God, then why is it then Jesus Christ himself recieved a glofified body, and we who are in him are also promised this and hope for at the resurrection? If it is unimportant, and not part of the truth, why then is this continually spoken about in the scriptures - God's word of truth?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

But that is just it ... He hasn't talked about it ... He hasn't told us anything about this distinction. All of that has been made up. This is not "continually talked about in the Scriptures." In fact, this supposed distinction is only found in two places: Heb 4:12 and 1 Thess 5:23 ... both of which are talking about man as a whole, not man as being in parts. Aside from those two passages, there is no other place that a soul/spirit distinction is made.

Your claim can give excuses for sin. Many people have bought into the psychological idea that some sinful problems are not spiritual ones, but rather soulish ones. That leads to bad theology such as not addressing sin biblically. (I am not accusing you of that.) The reality is that all sin finds itself in teh spirit/soul ... the immaterial part of man. If we divide that into different categories, then we have no biblical teaching on how to address sin.

As for the body being part of the image, things can be important without being aprt of the image. Some suggest that the corporeal body is a part of the image of God, and that God had in mind the archetypal man, Christ, when he created Adam. I don't have a problem with that. My only question would be this: If God is spirit, then how his is image corporeal? Again, nothing is at stake.

The biggest problem with your approach is that it leads to bad theology and sin, its origin, and its solution in the human life. It leads to bad counseling techniques, and the search for problems/answers that are not rooted in Scripture.

 

The nature of man is not merely a theological matter. It is also a medical, psychological, and social matter. I am thankful that surgeons today do not rely exclusively on the Bible for their understanding of human anatomy and physiology. And if the spirit of a man is different from his psyche, then the study of the spirit may prove to be essential to the understanding of human behavior and give us much more insight into the reasons why children are killing each other, and other social issues that from my point of view are not 100% irrelevant.

Sure, we can say that children kill each other because they are sinners, but they are still killing each other! If we knew more details as to why they are doing it, we may be able to prevent it to a significantly greater degree than we have already learned how to. And perhaps by studying why children do the things they do from the perspective of the body, the soul, and the spirit, we might learn some of the details that we are now missing.

 

Craig,

The spiritual nature of man is not a matter than medicine or psychology can address. No one suggests that surgeons should rely only on teh body. They should rely on things God has given us to address the diseases of the body.

But we should, at the same time, rely on what God has given us to address the immaterial, or spiritul, side of man.

Your discussion of children killing each other points out the problem with Michelle's and your ideas here. You are willing to take a sin problem and look for "more details." They are doing it becuase they are living in rebellion against God. They are seeking their own way and their own selfish pleasures over God's way. They have given in to the deceitful lusts of their own heart. If we are going to give them hope, then we need to address it that way. We cannot address a sin problem any other way and have real success in addressing it. We can prevent it by teaching children teh principles of God's word and how God says to approach life.

You made my point in an unexpected way ... but certainly in a way that shows the fallacies. That is not to say that all trichotomists are saddled with that view, but trichotomy certainly lends itself to it.

 

Such grossly absurd simplistic reasoning threatens to take the Church back into the dark ages! God did not only give us the Bible; He also gave us an intelligent mind and He blesses those who choose to use that gift to help others.

 

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

I agree with pastor Larry


We all are material and immaterial. There are many Verses That show this. Soul and/or Spirit
are interchangable.

Rom 8:10

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

1Cor 5:3-5

For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus

1Cor 7:34

There is a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she who is married cares about the things of the world--how she may please her husband

2Cor 7:1

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God


Gal 6:8

For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.


Col 2:5

For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.


2 Tim 4:22

The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.

 

JBE,

One of the most obvious characteristics of Paul’s writing is his use of the contrast of two concepts to make a point. The contrast that for which he is most noted is, of course, the contrast between law and grace. But as you have pointed out, he frequently drew the contrast between the flesh (sarx) and the spirit (pneuma). And as you have also pointed out, Paul also drew the contrast between the body (soma) and the spirit (pneuma). But it is not that simple, for Paul also wrote of the mind ( fronema) of the Spirit and the spirit of the mind ( nos), and in Phil. 1:27 and 1 Thes. 5:23 he makes a clear distinction between the spirit (pneuma) and soul ( psuche).

Romans 8:27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Mind = fronema Rom. 8:27

Eph. 3:23. and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Mind = nos

Phil. 1:27. Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Mind = psuche

2 Thes. 2:2. that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Composure = nos

2 Tim. 1:7. For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.
Discipline = sofronismou

Rom. 2:9. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
Soul = psuchen

Rom. 13:1. Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
Soul = psuche

1 Cor. 15:45. So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Soul = psuchen

2 Cor. 1:23. But I call God as witness to my soul, that to spare you I did not come again to Corinth.
Soul = psuchen

1 Thes. 5:23. Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Spirit, soul, body = pneuma, psuche, soma

The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews also makes a sharp distinction between the soul and the spirit in chapter 14, verse 12:

Heb. 4:12. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
psuches kai pneumatos

We also need to compare the use of the word psuche by the author of Hebrews with Paul’s use of the word pneuma

Heb. 6:19. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,
Soul = psuches

Heb. 10:38. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
Soul = psuche

Heb. 10:39. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Soul = psuches


And compare the use of the Greek word psuche by Peter, James, and John:

James 5:20. let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Soul = psuchen

1 Pet. 2:11. Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.
Soul = psuches

2 Pet. 2:8. (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
Soul = psuchen

3 John 1:2. Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
Soul = psuche

Rev. 16:3. The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.
Soul = psuche

Rev. 18:14. "The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.
Soul = psuches

(All scriptures NASB, 1995)



[ November 18, 2004, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: Craigbythesea ]

 

JBE,

I almost forgot . . . Welcome to the Baptist Board!

 

Such grossly absurd simplistic reasoning threatens to take the Church back into the dark ages! God did not only give us the Bible; He also gave us an intelligent mind and He blesses those who choose to use that gift to help others.

</font>[/QUOTE]Wow ... I am not sure what to say except Wow ... How in the world is saying that killing someone is rebellion against God taking teh churh back to the dark ages? That is strictly biblical truth.

It is not wonder the church is messed up today. We have this kind of mentality where we are not willing to call sin sin and offer hope for it in Jesus Christ. We want to make excuses for why people do what they do. Why not just tell them what it is and call them to repent and turn to Christ?

God gave us an intelligent mind, but that mind has been darkened by sin, and we have been excluded from the life of God because of ignorance that is in us. We are blinded by sin. Without the light of God's word, we have nothing. He expects you to use your mind to understand his word and to apply to the lives of people. Anything less is not pleasing to God.

 

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The biggest problem with your approach is that it leads to bad theology and sin, its origin, and its solution in the human life. It leads to bad counseling techniques, and the search for problems/answers that are not rooted in Scripture.
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Again, you have not explained this, and you have not even attempted to do so with our authority to which is the scriptures. As I have shown, and as the Bible also teaches, that all three parts of man sin and are all inter-connected, yet also separate one from the other.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Yes I did explain it Michelle. I said:

Craig just gave us a wonderful and unexpected example of this. He claims that children killing children is something that we need psychology to fully understand and address. Apparently Craig thinks (or at least has as the unintended consequence of his thinking) that children who killed children 500 years ago had no hope because psychology couldn't tell them why they did what they did. He apparently thinks that in order to understand man's problems, we need to "really understand" the soul.

I think God meant it when he said he gave us everything necessary for life and godliness. I think God meant it when he said he word is sufficient for every good work. We do not need to ideas of psychology. Where they give us something the Bible does not, they are unnecessary. When they give us something the Bible already has, they are repetitious.

What we need to know is that man is a rebel against God and sinful behavior is the result. The Bible teaches that sin is located in man's heart, his immaterial part. It does not distinguish between sins of the spirit and behavioral issues of the soul. It does not distinguish between being dead in the soul and dead in teh spirit. The Bible treats all non-organic issues as sin issues. We should do the same.

You have not shown any place where the Bible makes a distinction between soul and spirit. You, in fact, made a comletely unbiblical claim when you said

Thers is no Scripture that can be used to make this case consistently. In fact, the body is not full of sins at all. Christ had a body and had no sin in it. Sin works itself out through the material, but it not located in the material. Your attempt to distinguish between the spirit (heart) and soul (mind) is contrary to Scripture. The Bible equates the two in things such as "thinking in his heart," and other similar instances. The Bible simply does not make those distinctions and neither should you.

The fact remains that the soul/spirit distinction cannot be consistently made from Scripture. It necessitates the importing of ideas from outside the "authority." We do not need to do that.