Trinity debate trickles down to gender roles

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by gb93433, Nov 20, 2008.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433
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    DEERFIELD, Ill. (ABP) -- There’s a tempest brewing among evangelical theologians about the triune nature of God, with potential to spill beyond academic halls into relationships between males and females in the church and home.



    Trinity Evangelical Divinity School near Chicago recently sponsored a two-hour debate, broadcast live on the Internet, about whether relationships of submission and authority exist eternally between the Persons of Father, Son and Holy Spirit within the Trinity.




    The rest of the story is at http://www.abpnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3655&Itemid=53
     
  2. Jim1999

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    I fear, in the field of academia, there is a race to see who can come up with the latest "revelation" to shock the evangelical church. We have enough trouble keeping up with the basic without asking for more trouble.

    There are times I feel ashamed to have been an academic.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    You got it.:thumbs:
     
  4. gb93433

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    Sometimes they have to crank out articles and presentations to look good and get tenure.
     
  5. Marcia

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    Well, I think when anything comes up about the Trinity, it's significant. Sometimes the academic stuff leaks into the churches.

    I just read a point/counterpoint article on this same topic in the Christian Research Journal. That was also related to gender roles.

    Anyway, it might be a good thread to start sometime: Is the Son eternally submissive to the Father?
     
  6. Jim1999

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    I fear this is not even new thinking. Someone should examine the thinking of Harry Emerson Fosdick of Union Seminary and the Chicago Divinity School where I studied. The Liberal of the liberals. Eventually Fosdick had Jesus the man..........period. No trinity at all.

    Cheers,

    Jim

    When one plays in mud he is bound to get dirty.
     
  7. Marcia

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    What did Fosdick say about the Trinity?
     
  8. J.D.

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    Now Jim, it's a bit of a stretch to compare Fosdick to Grudem. And don't be so down on "academics" - the same thing happens even more in non-academic circles. Everyone is inventing new doctrines these days it seems.

    But the equivolency/hierarchy debate as gone on a long time.
     
  9. OldRegular

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    J. L. Dagg [a prominent Southern Baptist of the 19th century] in his Manual of Theology [pages 253-257] writes of the Triune Godhead as follows:

    "Although God's purpose is one, we are obliged, according to our modes of conception, to view it, and speak of it, as consisting of various parts. So, the eternal covenant is one; but it is revealed to us in a manner adapted to our conceptions and to our spiritual benefit. The work of redemption by Christ is presented in the Gospel as the great object of our faith; and the stipulation for the accomplishment of this work, is the prominent point exhibited in the revelation which is made to us respecting the covenant of grace. The agreement between the Father and the Son is conspicuously brought to view, in various parts of the sacred volume: Thine they were, and thou gavest them me. [John 17: 6] Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. [Psalm 2: 8] Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire. Then said I, Lo, I come, in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O God; [Psalm 40: 6-18] and in Isaiah, Chapter 49, the stipulations between the Father and the Son are presented, almost as if they had been copied from an original record of the transaction.

    According to the covenant arrangement, the Son appeared in human nature, in the form of a, servant; and, after obeying unto death, was exalted by the Father to supreme dominion. The Holy Spirit also is revealed as acting in a subordinate office, being sent by the Father and by the Son. The Father alone is not presented as acting in a subordinate office; but appears as sustaining the full authority of the Godhead, sending the Son, giving him a people to be redeemed, prescribing the terms, accepting the service, rewarding and glorifying the Son, and sending the Holy Spirit. In all this the Father appears as the representative of the Godhead, in its authority and majesty. The Son also sustains a representative character. The promise of eternal life was made, before the world began, to the people of God, in him as their representative. The reconciliation between God and men is provided for by the covenant engagement between the Father and the Son; the Father acting as the representative of the Godhead, and the Son as the representative and surety of his people. The Holy Spirit concurs in this arrangement, and takes his part in the work, in harmony with the other persons of the Godhead. His peculiar office is necessary to complete the plan, and to reward the obedience of the Son by the salvation of his redeemed people. The promises of the Father to the Son include the gift of the Holy Spirit; and, therefore, the sending of the Spirit is attributed to the Son; [John 16:7] and sometimes to the Father at the petition of the Son.[John 14:16]

    In this order of operation, inferiority of nature is not implied, in the subordination of office to which the Son and the Spirit voluntarily consent. The fulness of the Godhead dwells in each of the divine persons, and renders the fulfillment of the covenant infallibly sure, in all its stipulations. The Holy Spirit, in the execution of his office, dwells in believers; but he brings with him the fulness of the Godhead, so that God is in them, and they are the temple of God, and filled with the fulness of God. The Son or Word, in the execution of his office, becomes the man Jesus Christ; but the fulness of the Godhead dwells in him; so that, in his deepest humiliation he is God manifest in the flesh, God over all, blessed for ever."

    The above is only part of Dagg's discussion of the Covenant of Grace.
     
  10. OldRegular

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    The problem with many academics is that they sometimes forget who is really God.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    I was ready to get Grudem's book on theology. It is recommended by Reymond. Anyone on this Forum familiar with it. [In an aside my 11th grade grandson's is using Grudem's Theology in a Christian school. Sounds like a little much to me.]
     
  12. gb93433

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    I would question if they really know God. How can one who really knows God, forget who he is?
     
  13. Jim1999

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    On Fosdick, sorry, I don't have the mind anymore to recall all that he wrote on the trinity. He did a lot of letter writing, giving counsel to people who had "spiritual" and theological questions. I am sure some of this is recorded on the net somewhere. On once occasion, however, he did say that "the trinity that exists is you, me and the otherguy. That is how seriously he took the trinity. Jesus was just a man appointed by the God and sacrificed his human life on the cross...

    He spent a lifetime teaching his brand of theology at Union Seminary in New York and most are familiar with the liberalism that spewed from that seminary since about 1903.

    Cheers,

    Jim

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  14. Marcia

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    I do not have Grudem's systematic theology, but it has been discussed on other threads here. I recall that people liked it except for his view on speaking in tongues, I think.

    Grudem is also part of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, or at least writes a lot of stuff for them:
    www.cbmw.org
     
  15. annsni

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    I have it after hearing a recommendation by Gregg Harris (Josh Harris - of "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" fame and now pastor of CJ Mahaney's church is Gregg's son). He spoke in a seminar called "Where are all of the resident theologians" - speaking on how so many church men who are the leaders don't know basic theology. He then started a new thing in his church - working through Grudem's Systematic Theology with all of his deacons. It was a great idea - and I decided to purchase the book. When my hubby was studying for his ordination, it was one of the texts that he and the other 4 pastors used and so he "stole" mine. LOL - We still fight over it because it has MY notes in it and HIS too. :)

    I'd recommend it. I feel it's really sound and it does also show some different views on things. It's also a VERY easy read and using it in 11th grade is absolutely no problem. I kept it next to my bed for night time reading. I sometimes have a hard time following heavy reading but this was very easy for me to follow.

    Hey get it. If you don't want to keep it, I'll buy it from you so DH and I can each have our own copy. LOL
     
  16. OldRegular

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    Thanks, I appreciate your helpful comments!:laugh: :laugh:
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    Grudem is a good theology. He is posttrib, and believes that the sign gifts continue in some respect. He is a part of CBMW as was mentioned. I would recommend his theology, though I don't agree with all of it.

    It is a good text book, and glad to hear that an 11th grade class is using it.
     

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