Featured Trinity

Greetings again steaver,

Concerning your recent posts I would like to simply state that regarding the Virgin Birth, I believe that God the Father was the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and Mary was his mother, in the line of David who was promised a seed to sit as king 2 Samuel 7:12-16. Luke 1:35 clearly states that because God was Jesus’ Father, then Jesus would also be called the Son of God. This does not make Jesus a Deity, as he was made lower than the Angels Psalm 8, Hebrews 2. The following is rather lengthy, but is in response to your earlier post.

I appreciate some of your advice. As stated in a previous post my normal Bible is the KJV. It is my favourite translation and it has been all of my life. I now also do some Bible reading using a recently obtained Interlinear KJV / RV. I respect the OT portion of the RV more than the NT portion of the RV.

In most of the posts in this thread I have simply used the KJV to establish that there is One God the Father and that Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that this is the teaching of the Bible and can be simply and clearly established using the KJV.

I responded to 12strings when he quoted Isaiah 9:6. Concerning the word “mighty” in Isaiah 9:6, the following is from Strong’s in e-Sword:

It is not only from looking at Strong’s that the meaning of this phrase can be determined. You ask me to accept that this phrase is teaching the Trinity. But the basic meaning of the original words, and the context of this phrase in the verse, and in the chapter and in this portion of Isaiah 6-12, and in the book of Isaiah as a whole suggests to me that it is speaking of this future king’s role of overcoming the militancy of the nations and usher in a period of peace.

Isaiah prophesied during the reign of four kings, Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah. God helped Uzziah in the early part of his reign, taking heed to the counsel of a prophet Zechariah. But he made warfare and militancy was his crowning obsession. His success resulted in his pride and he tried to usurp the priesthood, and thus become a king-priest. God had separated these roles into the house of Levi and Judah until the true king-priest would arise, the Messiah. Uzziah was smitten with leprosy and the Kingdom of Judah descended into darkness with him. It was in the year that Uzziah died that Isaiah saw a vision of the future, depicting in contrast to Uzziah the true King-Priest sitting in the Temple with the earth filled with God’s glory.

Isaiah is commissioned as a prophet and he was told that his preaching was destined to be ineffectual as far as the nation as a whole was concerned, as they would be swept away into captivity. Judah would fail to see and hear, or to quote your phrase “In seeing they will not see, in hearing they will not hear” taken from Isaiah 6:9-10, similar to your statement “Praying for that veil to be removed” Isaiah 8:16. Despite this sombre role as a prophet to an unheeding nation, Isaiah started to gather a group of disciples Isaiah 8. It appears that among these was the prince Hezekiah, who had become more of a child of his mother Abijah, the daughter of Zechariah the prophet, than a son of the wicked King Ahaz. He was also instructed by God (compare also Isaiah 7:14, 11:1-5).

Isaiah started to witness to Ahaz in Isaiah 7 assuring him that the house of David would not be swept aside by the confederacy of Israel and Syria, but the king refused the prophet and his message. He hired the Assyrian and this was the start of the Assyrian ascendancy in this region. As a result some time later the Northern Kingdom of Israel was swept into captivity. In the context of this there was promised a child, a Son, who would receive the government.
Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV): 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This was typically and partially fulfilled in Hezekiah. He was not a militant man, but trusted in God. In his time of distress when he was close to death and when the Assyrian invaded and took all the cities of Judah except Jerusalem, God heard his prayer and the prayer of Isaiah, and God healed Hezekiah from his leprosy and destroyed the Assyrian army encamped around Jerusalem. The Servant Songs of Isaiah 42-53 are based in part on Hezekiah, but we all know that Isaiah 53 can only be completely fulfilled in Jesus and his sufferings, his deliverance from death and his conquest of the latter-day Assyrian.

A contemporary prophet also speaks of these things:
Micah 5:1-2 (KJV): 1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. 2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Micah 5:5-6 (KJV): 5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. 6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
Isaiah 53:12 (KJV): Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

What was tentatively and partially fulfilled in Hezekiah is yet to be fully outworked in the future work of the Lord Jesus Christ. David had conquered the champion Goliath, and Psalm 8 is based upon this incident. Jesus, who was not a man of carnal warfare like David, who would thus be qualified to build God’s Temple, would conquer sin in all its causes and effects, and by suffering the death on the Cross Hebrews 2. He has become the captain of salvation to all those who put their trust in him. He is destined to be the new Lord of the New Creation as Psalm 8 depicts.
Psalm 8:5-6 (KJV): 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
He is yet to return and subject the nations to his command, as the little stone cut out of the mountains by Divine agency, he will conquer and destroy the militant man depicting the kingdoms of men in Daniel 2, and then Isaiah 9:6-7 will be fulfilled in all its details. Jesus is destined to be the Mighty Warrior or Champion, El Gibbor, of the Age to Come Isaiah 2:1-4 (another vision partially fulfilled in Hezekiah).

Kind regards
Trevor

 

I believe you are correct!

 

It appears you are denying the Deity of Jesus Christ. If so that is heresy. Scripture clearly teaches the Deity of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ Himself said:

John 10:30. I and my Father are one.

John 17:1-5
1. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

The Apostle John tells us:

John 1:1-4
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


The Apostle Paul tells us:

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Philippians 2:5-11
5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

All those are from the good old KJV and there are many more!

 

Spirit the God impregnated the seed of the woman the seed of David and she brought forth her first born Son, who was holy and they called him Jesus and he was the Son of the Most High (God). As you said Jesus was both the son of David and the Son of God through the virgin Mary the seed of David.

Nothing would prevent Jesus the only begotten Son of God through the virgin Mary as being God being in the flesh, Holy. Jesus is the Holy one of God.
Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

This is speaking of the man Jesus.

Did Spirit the God beget in Mary a man child?

Why? So that sinless man could could be paid the wages of sin appointed to the first man Adam as payment for sin. The lamb ordained to be slain before the first man Adam was created in the image of God. Ordained to die before the woman was taken from the man of which the lamb would be born, come into the world.

Where does that payment actually come from?

Who has the power of death? See Heb. 2:14

Spirit the God begat in the woman taken from the man created in the image of God a Son, (God if you will) however a Son (God if you will) subject to death and all of the ramifications of that word.

When that Son died he was dead. Unless he were given life again by his Father, Spirit the God, he would be dead, whatever that means. Thou will not leave my soul in Hades, the place of death, neither will my flesh see corruption. (The flesh the Christ died in. being put to death in the flesh. That is how souls die. Spirit life departs a man returns to God who gave it and the flesh and the soul die.

That is who the Son of God was/is.

If there was any aspect of the Son of God that keep him from dying then there would be no payment for sin.

The sacrifice of animals, flesh, never paid for sin.

The willful having of the sin of the world laid upon him and the willful giving of his life dying of the Soul was the ransom paid. He poured out his soul unto death.

 

Greetings again OldRegular and steaver,

I appreciate your response. Yes I deny that Jesus is God the Son, the second person of the Trinity. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Most of the quotes that you raise have been considered in earlier posts. For example John 10:30 has been discussed at length.

So you are claiming that the babe in the manger was Deity. I believe he was the Son of God and like any child he had to grow and learn as the Scriptures clearly state. A Deity does not need to learn wisdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Greetings again steaver ,

Did he actually completely put aside or lose the mind of Deity, or did his mind of Deity run in the background and was suppressed? When did he regain the mind of Deity and could you give one Scripture that actually says that he lost his Deity mind and where does it say he regained his Deity mind and when?

John 1:14 indicates that he fully revealed the character of God, he was full of grace and truth, and the Apostle John beheld this glory. But you say that in some sense there was no continuity of the Deity of the Word. I believe in the continuity of the Word.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Greetings again steaver,

My assessment of the various facets of the teaching on the Trinity is that it is confusing, does not at all make sense and it does not agree with the Scriptures. The more I try to reconcile the disparate elements the more my mind goes in a spin. I am happy to withdraw into my simple and clear understanding that the Scriptures teach that there is One God the Father, and that Jesus is the Son of God. Unless something substantive occurs on this thread I will bid you farewell for the moment, and I appreciate the time and effort that you have expended.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Here are some things to consider.
First, Your first reason is the same that the J.W.'s give for not believing in the trinity: "It is confusing, does not at all make sense, does not agree (with my view) of the Scriptures." IOW, because I don't understand I won't believe it.
Second, there are many things we can't understand that are in the Bible. There are many things we must accept by faith. The opening statement of the Bible: "In the beginning God..." assumes the existence of God. Never does the Bible try and prove the existence of God for the atheist. It assumes that He exists and that fact is taken by faith as soon as we open the Bible. It is not to be questioned.
If we were reading it in the original language we would read "In the beginning "Elohim" the name for "gods" in pagan literature. It is a plural noun. 17th Century scholar Adam Clarke explains it well:

 

Jesus claimed that Son of God meant that he was GOD, equally as much God as the father is!

Apostlesd ALL agreed with him, do you?

 

Greetings again DHK,

I prefer to question things, and prove all things and hold fast to what is good. I prefer the Scriptural exposition that there is One God the Father. I believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God by birth Luke 1:35, because of his moral character “full of grace and truth” John 1:14 “spirit of holiness” Romans 1:4, and by his resurrection from the dead, that is being born again by the power of God, to immortality Romans 1:4. He is now seated at the right hand of God. I believe strongly in the future aspect of the Yahweh Name, fulfilled in the development of Jesus, and yet to be completed in the salvation of others, see Posts #37, 41. This development of the Yahweh Name is better understood by the simple NT terms of Father and Son, that is, God the Father and the Son of God.

When a source of information has been proved reliable, then trust in other information from the same source becomes easier to rely upon. Concerning the existence of God, Paul says in Romans 1:18-20 that there is ample evidence in Creation that God exists. God’s eternal power and wisdom are evident when we see and consider the wonders of creation. A favourite verse:
Proverbs 20:12 (KJV): The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

We could also consider prophecy and many other parts of the Divine revelation. God does not call upon us to have blind faith, let alone faith based on confusion of thoughts and ideas, but a faith based upon Divine revelation. Much of this prophecy has already been fulfilled. This leads to a hearing and believing of what God has already done, especially that accomplished in and through His Son Isaiah 53:1. Fulfilled prophecy encourages us to believe what is yet pronounced concerning the future. This is not blind faith, but faith based upon a sure foundation.

Could you please check if Elohim is found in pagan literature. I think Elohim is unique to Hebrew, even though cognate words are found elsewhere. I realise that the view presented by Adam Clarke is popular amongst some Trinitarians. Other Trinitarians see the plural as a plurality of majesty, while others consider the plural form is actually singular in an intensive form, especially when followed by a singular verb. The NET Bible notes suggest the plurality of Genesis 1:26-27 is the Angels and I gave an explanation similar to this in Post #45. This would then also apply to Genesis 1:1-2. I supported this by also considering Psalm 8 where Elohim is translated angels in the KJV, confirmed by the exposition in Hebrews 2. I came to my view independent of the NET Bible notes and have gradually grown in this line of thought over many years.

Adam Clarke’s endorsement of prior scholars and your possible agreement with this endorsement have the opposite effect upon me. Many of these scholars were part of the Apostate Catholic Church, and I see the need to reexamine all teachings handed down from that source. Many Catholic doctrines were rejected with the Reformation, for example purgatory and indulgences. Many Catholic scholars would still support these doctrines and nominally 1.4 billion Catholics still endorse this view and some spend large amounts of money to solicit earlier exit from purgatory through special masses. The Baptists rid themselves of many wrong doctrines but preserved others. Do the Baptists endorse all aspects of the Athanasian Creed, and is this linked with your claim that we need to exercise some aspects of blind faith?

I copied out each of the verses in the list and briefly considered each one. The following do have a plural and I could explain the following in more detail if you request this:
Genesis 1:26, Genesis 3:22: See Post #45 as mentioned above. The Angels were active in creation and in the garden. God cannot be seen by man.
Genesis 11:7: This would be at least two Angels, similar to the Angels that visited Sodom.
1 Samuel 4:8: This was the Philistine assessment when the Ark of the Covenant came into their midst. They certainly did not consider the God of Israel and the Ark as part of the Trinity.
Isaiah 6:8: The “I” is the voice of the Lord and the “us” is the Lord speaking on behalf of the seraphim. The vision of the Lord enthroned as King-Priest was a vision of Jesus in the future Kingdom John 12:37-41. The vision was not a current reality, even though God made this vision to be interactive with the commissioning of Isaiah. I believe the details concerning the seraphim, including their wings, are expounded in the person and by the actions of Jesus in John 12. Are the seraphim, the “us” of Isaiah 6:8, part of the Trinity?
Isaiah 6:3: This is ascribing complete holiness to Yahweh of Hosts. Hebrew idiom repeats a word for emphasis, gold gold = pure gold, peace peace = perfect peace, S# 6944 x2 = holy holy = KJV most holy (place of the tabernacle) or NASB holy of holies. Isaiah 6:3 Holy, Holy, Holy = completely Holy - Yahweh himself or the antitypical tabernacle holy of holies – God’s dwelling place amongst men, the Lord Jesus Christ, not three persons as part of a Trinity as per the popular hymn.
None of the above passages to my understanding support the Trinity.

As far as the rest are concerned I could not detect where there was a plural, nor could I appreciate that if there is a plural, where any of these would support the Trinity. I am not that good at Hebrew. I do have a laborious electronic reference book meant for those with Hebrew skills. I will leave these for the moment but if you are convinced that some of these verses in the list absolutely prove the Trinity, then I would be interested if you highlight these verses or give an explanation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Greetings again Yeshua1 and steaver,

I disagree with your conclusion.

Most probably not in the same sense as you would claim. Please refer to my earlier post concerning something substantive. Although you are very sincere, you are repeating the same material and questions. I'd hate to have you in charge of the Spanish Inquisition. Torture next, or in USA a lynch mob, or modern days high power attack rifle. Baptists have been known to take up arms, for example the American Civil War. Unlike the Anabaptists for whom I have some respect in this regard.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

He is simply understood here for those who are willing:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
--These three separate persons are one God.

Stick with Romans 1 for a bit:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--The Godhead is a triune Godhead. It is the trinity. It is the only Godhead that Christianity knows. Any other Godhead is not known to Christianity.

Here is divine revelation:
Elohim created all things.
The Spirit of God, as God was involved in Creation (Gen.1:2)
Christ is the Creator of all things. (John 1:3,4)

At the baptism of Christ: Christ stood in the water (God come in the flesh)
The Holy Spirit appeared as a dove (third person of the trinity).
The Father's voice boomed out of heaven: "This is my Son..."
--All three persons were distinctly present, and yet there is only one God.
Faith is based on revelation. It is not blind; it is based on the Word of God.
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

The trinity is not blind faith, but faith in the facts of the Word of God.
The Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there is only one God. These facts are irrefutable.

It is found in pagan literature. It is a very common word.

Not just the Jews spoke Hebrew. Even if they did, there are languages that are very very close that are spoken by nearby countries. Vocabularies of different languages tend to mix with each other, just as English has words borrowed from a host of different languages.

Though I am not a fan of the notes of the NET Bible, here is what it says on Genesis 1:1,

God. This frequently used Hebrew name for God (אֱלֹהִים,’elohim ) is a plural form. When it refers to the one true God, the singular verb is normally used, as here. The plural form indicates majesty; the name stresses God’s sovereignty and incomparability – he is the “God of gods.”

It still doesn't contradict what Clarke said. Clarke went in much more detail. The NET says, "Elohim is a plural form, referring to the one true God, the singular verb is normally used as here."
--As I said, Elohim is a plural name for God, (gods), and is used with a singular verb. Why? There are three persons in one God. We are taught this concept from the very beginning of the Bible.

I believe your viewpoint is heresy.
First it contradicts what the Bible plainly teaches--that God created all things in six days and then rested on the seventh.
The angels are created beings. He created the angels as well. You are ascribing a form of divinity to the angels. God alone is Creator. Over and over again the Bible ascribes creation to Jesus Christ. He is our Creator. From Col.1:15-17; John 1:3,4; Rev.4:11, and many more. Christ created all things. He is God.

 

You need to look up who Adam Clarke was then. It would be slanderous for you to connect him to the RCC in any way.
Wikipedia says about him:
"He is chiefly remembered for writing a commentary on the Bible which took him 40 years to complete and which was a primary Methodist theological resource for two centuries." He lived from 1760-1832.
Unlike the Reformers, he stood against Calvinism.

I do not say we should have blind faith. Don't put words in my mouth.
I believe in sola scriptura or that we should have the Bible as our final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. Faith comes from hearing the Word of God. My faith rests on the revelation of God, and my faith has an object; its object is Christ who has given me complete forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
I am a former Catholic, know what their beliefs are and reject that religions way of salvation. However they are smart enough to realize that the Lord our God is one God, and that in one God there are three equal co-eternal, co-existing persons. And, you, like the J.W. prefer not to believe in this mystery because even though the Bible teaches it, you can't understand it. That is what I get from what you write.

Heresy! Angels were not active in creation. That is a myth, an invention of your own active imagination that has not a shred of scriptural support.

At the tower of Babel? NO!
This is the triune Godhead speaking.
pquote]1 Samuel 4:8: This was the Philistine assessment when the Ark of the Covenant came into their midst. They certainly did not consider the God of Israel and the Ark as part of the Trinity.[/quote]
It is obvious that the pagan Philistines were very confused on who God was. Most pagans are!

1 Samuel 4:7 And the Philistines were afraid, for they said, God is come into the camp. And they said, Woe unto us! for there hath not been such a thing heretofore.
--Here the address the God of Israel as one, in the singular.
8 Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness.
--And here in the plural. They are confused as to who God is.

Do you think you can read anything you want to into Scripture just because you disagree with orthodox Christian teaching?
The "I" and the "us" agree with each other. The subject has not changed. They both refer to the same God--one God; three persons.

The seraphim are not part of the "us". "Us" refers to God and God alone.

Singing Holy three times doesn't support anything. They were simply praising God for who he was--Holy.

Most of them do. Putting angels on a pedestal almost equal with God is heresy. The fact about angels is that they were created to be servants to those that believe:

Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to do service for the sake of them that shall inherit salvation?