Trojan Horses in America

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by LadyEagle, Jul 21, 2004.

  1. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
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    The Trojan Horse was an instrument of war used by the Greeks to gain access to the city of Troy.

    Whether it was an historical fact or a myth is debated. But the principle behind the idea of the trojan horse is for the enemy to gain access in order to conquer.

    IMO, America has a number of trojan horses which will ultimately cause America to fall and be relegated to the dustpile of human history.

    Comments?
     
  2. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    Might be easier to discuss them, if you lay them out, or at least give some examples.
     
  3. LadyEagle

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    Okay. Here are a few:

    1. Illegal immigration and a Federal Government which does little to defend and protect our borders.
    2. American Corporations doing business with countries which sponsor terrorism (either officially or unofficially).
    3. Elected officials who own shares in companies who do business with those who sponsor terrorism.
    4. Foreign investors from countries who officially or unofficially sponsor terrorism.
    5. American corporations who do business overseas who pay organizations off, (which are listed on the US State Dept official terrorist organization list),so they are free to do business there without being terrorized.
    6. Not having English as the official language.
    7. Allowing the court system to legislate from the bench without being challenged by Congress.
    8. Our spiraling national debt.
    9. Non-citizens serving in our military.


    There are 9 to start with. (Shall we have a trojan horse topic for each one, Dr. Bob?)
     
  4. Johnv

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    Interesting that you bring this up. I fail to see why thos is a "Trojan Horse" issue. Our Founding Fathers didn't see the need to endow the new country with an official language. At the time of our founding, the country spoke a several different languages, including English, German, and Dutch. Then the western terrorities were added, Spanish became the second most common language spoken in the US.

    Again, I fail to see why this a trojan horse issue. This was not an issue at the time of the founding of the country, and is not an issue now. My own family has had several people serve in the military who were non-citizens. In fact, two non-citizens in my family were drafted.
     
  5. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    LE.

    Since I asked, I'll give my take, one at a time.

    Agree that the borders should be more closely regulated, and that immigration should be more closely controled. A larger problem I see is this, and I am sure that I will get beaten around the head and shoulder for saying it, but here goes. I don't think the immigrants to this country are as a much of a problem for the U.S. as they are for the country from which they immigrate. The best and the brightest seem to seek out the U.S., and if not the best and brighest, then the most desparate for money for their families. This drain, puts additional strain on their homelands to maintain a decent standard of living, this inducing others to follow. If these immigrants would stay in their homelands and put their energies into making their home nations better, then I believe all would be better off, the U.S. and the source country. Of course there are from time to time, natural or political disasters which create a refugee problem, and I am loathe to turn those away who have a legitimate reason to leave their native state.

    In principal again I agree. Sticky issue though on who decides who sponsors terrorism. For example, much terrorism emminates from Saudi Arabia, but I don't believe their government condones it. They are a prime target for being toppled. Citizens of Columbia, a country, which as far as I am aware doesn't habor Islamic terror cells, probably cause more death on American streets, via the drug trade, than any Islamic group ever did. This is an off the cuff observation, I have no numbers to back it up.

    Certainly a problem. Elected officials at the highest reaches of the Federal government are supposed to have their investments in a blind trust so that they are unaware of which companies they have a finanical stake. In practice, it doesn't really work that way. Currently the most egregious offender in this category would be the Vice President, Mr. Cheney.

    See answer to #2. If there is a high probablity that the investor isn't participating in such activities, then I don't see a problem. Case in point, many of those wealthy enough to be investors in pre-Castro Cuba or pre-Revolutionary Iran, eventually came to the US and many have made good contributions to the U.S.

    Don't really follow your reasoning here. Might be me being dense. If you are, for example, talking about a Halliburton setting up a subsidiary in the Cayman Islands so that they could do business with Iran/Iraq, then I would agree. If that isn't what you are thinking, then clue me in.

    I think English should be the official language of the U.S. But I don't think that if it isn't it will cause the fall of American Civilization.

    Partial agreement, partial disagreement here. I dont see the problem as principally one of the courts. It is more of a legislative problem, in that many of the laws which are enacted are passed as a knee-jerk reaction to some event -- e.g., Patriot Act, without being well thought out. Many of the laws which are passed are in conflict with others, and we must have a strong judiciary to arbitrate these disputes. I rarely see the bench legislating. But judges are human just like the rest of us, and sometimes they mess up, just like the rest of us. I suppose the issue underlying this point is abortion and homosexual marriage in Mass. I would be in favor of a well-crafted law to reduce the availability or abortion, but not an out right ban. I think that if there is credible medical evidence that the life of the mother is in danger, an abortion should be allowed. I know others feel differently. As for the homosexual marriages thing, I really am conflicted about it. A ban on same-sex marriages certainly wouldn't stop the sin of homosexual acts.

    A gigantic, humgous, problem. The number one reason I will vote for Mr. Kerry this fall. Did anyone but me, notice that Democrats are now more fiscally conservative than Republicans. Spin the Bush tax cuts any way you want, but it is nothing but a tax increase on my children and grandchildren.

    I don't see it as a problem. I did 8 years in the Army, and many of the non-citizens want to become citizens, and many of the non-citzens have a very high sense of obligation to their adopted homeland, more so than many native born.
     
  6. LadyEagle

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    Appreciate your comments, Jeff.


    Here


    Foreign Investment in America for Citizenship Program INS

    http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/residency/investment.htm

    Non-Citizens in Military:

    http://usmilitary.about.com/library/weekly/aa082701a.htm

    One can only wonder what one must do to get that waiver. Nice, huh.
     
  7. Melanie

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    I must admit I am amazed that non-cits can serve in your army. In Australia it is a mandatory requirement
     
  8. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    LE

    I still really don't understand what you are going at here. Not saying that I agree or disagree, just don't understand. Maybe I am being dense.

    As for the list, it is long out of date. Hungary is now in NATO, and some of the names are not of actual countries, e.g., Gulgaria (did he mean Bulgaria?), Kurile Isles, South Albania, etc. I read the article and it really isn't very good. That doesn't invalidate your point, but the article doens't really help it either.

    J
     
  9. Johnv

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    My understanding is that they're on a case by case basis. The most common reason for a waiver is if you were born elsewhere, but grew up here. For exampple, my cousin came here when he was about seven or so. He enlisted after high school. Had his country of origin been been from a hostile nation, then he would have been able to obtain a waiver based on the fact that he had been here for a signigicant amount of time and been rqaised here, 11 years, most of his life at that time.
     

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