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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jun 3, 2011.
You have the final say in your eternal state/situation?
yes or No?
No, it is a marriage with Christ as the wooer
I hope this is relevant. Can God save without someone to save or can man save himself without God? It does involves two, God and a believer.
My salvation is 100% of God. 100%. That leaves 0% for Bob.
Jesus told Nick at night that in the New Birth the Spirit works invisibly and we only discern the results. So it is God's choice on whom the Spirit will do His regenerative work.
Permit Him? Who is "god" here?
God doesn't need my permission. I love Him only because He first loved me. I respond in repentance/faith only because He first enabled me to respond.
The "marriage" analogy fails in today's society (we fall in love, woo the one, propose and hope they accept - mutual). But the TRUE marriage analogy is that of an arranged marriage.
Not MY will - my will was an enemy and hater of Christ and I could not seek, call, receive, obey or even will/want to marry Him. But arranged by my Heavenly Father in the portals of eternity to make me His child and bride for His Son. Bought and paid for. One-sided covenant.
But,oh, when He changed my heart, I could not run FAST ENOUGH to the arms of my new Love. And rest still today, sweetly on His breast, while He whispers in my ear.
"I am His, and He is mine"!
With that said, do you believe that there are some people whom God chooses not to save?
No marriage will work one sided with a covenant we make with God and God makes with us. Our part we play can't be denied, for it is always there hunting us, leading us to the truth. That it takes two. God does start and finishes. It still takes two for any relationship to work, no matter how much we deny our part. To trust in Him where there is no work involved only what men want to say it is to avoid what they have been called to do, believe.
There was this women married to this guy. He had all these rules and regulation to follow while he was off to work. She was never able to complete them and make her husband happy with her. He died and she ended up getting remarried. He left with no list as he went off to work. She ask where is my to do list. What am I going to do while your at work. He said you old husband is dead you are married to me, what you do for me is out love not work.
Deuteronomy 30:19 (KJV)
30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Revelation 22:17 (KJV)
22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Acts 7:51 (KJV)
7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
In all three cases, God presents men with an opportunity to serve Him or not. If God determines who will serve and who will not, then the outcome is inevitable. If the outcome is inevitable, then the invitation to accept or reject His invitation is ultimately a farce. What would be the point of commanding men to do or not do something if they have no choice?
So in truth you ARE saying God could not save you a part from you willingly desiring Him to do so. Thus it is NOT 100% God, you have to be willing or God will not save you. Otherwise, why change your heart in order TO save you?
If it was NOT your will, why did God wait to save you till you were 'willingly'?
Additionally, the 'arranged marriage', IF you look at it historically, the bride DID have the option of not marrying their intended. Though it was often done for the sake of the family's pride and honor, it WAS NOT a guarantee because it was pre-arranged. Thus your analogy falls equally short.
1) I dont see where he said he gave his permission
2) God changes the heart independent of any human desire.
Bob made his point evidently clear....IE, Salvation is all of God & none of us. Thank you Bob!
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killeth the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Jn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Prov 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
There are many verses besides these that shows God calls men to save them, but they refuse.
"I believe" God CAN do whatsoever he will, "I do not believe" he will save someone without faith and belief.
Calvin believed that God does reveal Himself to natural man through nature. What God has made.
There was a farmer who said God provided the water and the seed, so he said let God do the work in the field to grow the crop. That season no crop came and he lost the farm.
The man who bought it, tilled the ground prepared it, got rid of the rocky soil until it was fine. He planted each seed in the precise depth , he watered it, he tended it and watched over. When the crop came it was at an abundance.
The guy who owned it before came by and congratulated him and said that God blessed him. He replied you should of seen it when God had it by Himself.
God cannot commit error, so the method of calling men and waiting for their response in faith is the correct way. I do not agree he could do it some other way.
And notice again Pro 1:23
Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
#1 we turn or repent at God's reproof
#2 AFTER turning or repenting do we receive the Spirit
#3 AFTER receiving the Spirit does God cause us to know or understand the deeper things of God.
This overthrows the Calvinist teaching that the unregenerate man cannot respond to God's word. They use 1 Cor 2:14 for this argument. But Prov 1:23 gives the correct understanding, unregenerate man can understand, be convicted, and repent at God's reproof. If a man repents and believes he is given the Spirit and then can know the deeper things of God.
Excellent analogy. God provides grace, but man must cooperate with it. Only God can give life and cause crops to grow, but man must till the soil and prepare it. Only then does God cause the crops to grow.
And no farmer would believe his own labor caused the crops to grow, but would give thanks to God for a good crop.
Personally I don't like the term 'allow' as it has various connotations and in this sense it will most always be negative.
However the 'allow' I am speaking to is the same as an exhausted man in the ocean, nearly drowning, when he rescuer arrives to save him.
The rescuer can not save him, without potential harm to either, if the man does not wish to be saved, or understands that this person is not here to finish him off.
Thus the drowning man must allow or yield or submit.. but in all cases it is done in conjunction or cooperation with his desire and not (for this analogy) a part from it.
Just as God does not save a part from one's willingness to be saved.
So IF God does it all and man nothing (100% God) and that were true then God does not need man to believe IN ORDER TO save him.
Why does God change mans nature in your view... ie.. to make him willing.
Why.. because God will not save man a part from man being willing to be saved.. ie allow God TO save him.
Otherwise God does not need, desire, or care if man believes or not IN ORDER TO save him. The point is.. and you can't get around it.. God makes man willing for a reason.
Even in the reformed view, mans salvation hinges upon him being willing.. which is nothing more than saying He wants to be saved.. willing to allow God to save him.. and any other variation you want to say it as. Thus the reformed or Calvinistic view is in fact, synergistic by their own definition.
Why? Because God will not (thus can not) save man a part from him being willing and therefore (in light of this) man cooperates in his salvation.
First off, I am with Bro. Allan, and that I don't like to use the word "allow", because of the negative connotations, but I prefer "cooperation". I know that some on here hate that word usage, too, but, oh well, you can't please'em all!! LOL
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
So here are a few examples that it is up to us to repent of our sins when comes calls out to us. We can not, and will not repent, until He first calls. God will not repent for us, we have to repent for our self. After we repent of our sins, and truly do so from the heart, He will then come in, and take up His abode in our life, and never leave us or forsake us!! Praise His sweet name!!
i am I AM's!!
My father-in-law heard someone say one time that a man could starve to death sitting under an apple tree, unless he reaches up and plucks an apple. I know that they eventually fall to the ground, but you get the point. God extends grace to us, we must accept the grace offered.
Then your answer is True, God cannot save a person without that person's permission. Correct?
If this is addressed to me, I have presented many scriptures that showed that is US who MUST REPENT of OUR sins, and that God WILL NOT REPENT for us!! Not yelling, just for emphasis only.
The way the other side(DoG) "doles" it out, it is nothing more than a glorified "shotgun wedding". A wedding involves two willing people. When God saves us, we are then married to Jesus, and are the Lamb's wife, that John saw coming down from heaven as a bride adorned for Her Husband.
And as far as words such as "allow", "permission"/"permit", they have a negative connotation to them. God doesn't come to us and say, "Excuse Me, but if it's okay with you, I'd like to save your soul. Is this okay with you??" No one from either side of this debate will concur with this either. Grace is "extended" to all, and those who WILLINGLY accept it, will be saved. Those who REJECT it, will die lost. Its that cut and dried.
PLEASE, dont presume to understand Calvinism, you do a lousy job of it.