Trying to understand John 8:47

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Blammo, Aug 26, 2006.

  1. Blammo

    Blammo
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    John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

    I understand calvinists believe the lost cannot believe, because they cannot hear, because they are spiritually dead. After studying John 1-8 tonight, I am seeing it a little differently. I believe the lost remain spiritually dead as a result of unbelief, therefore, they cannot hear. In other words, it seems calvinists put "born again" before "belief", while it looks like the actual order is "belief" before "born again". So, the way I understand John 8:47 is, because of pride, these guys won't believe Jesus is the Christ, therefore they are not born again, and that is why they do not hear God's words.
     
  2. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    But praise God for the hope they still have.

     
  3. skypair

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    Blammo,

    The main issue here is why they couldn't 'hear.' It was NOT because they were non-elect -- it was because they were Pharisees who had hardened their hearts against Jesus even declaring him right here to be a bastard.

    One who is of God and not taught of the demons or "your father the devil" still perceives right and wrong in their conscience/soul (not a "seared" conscience) and still has a mind/emotions/will open to truth.

    skypair
     
  4. Brother Bob

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    James, chapter 1
    19: Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
    20: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
    21: Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
    22: But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    23: For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25: But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
     
  5. HankD

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    Blammo, you don't need to "try" to understand what Jesus is saying in this passage. It needs no interpretation (I know you know that, but for the sake of the discission...).

    What is Jesus purpose in making this confrontational statement to the Pharisees?

    Early on in His ministry He let them know why He rebuked them so often:

    John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

    It's really simple, no?

    He wanted them to know that though they felt good about themselves (had high esteem of themselves in their own eyes) in terms of their relationship with God, they were wrong and He wanted them to change their mind(s) and be saved in spite of their ignorance.

    Nothing has changed?

    HankD​
     
  6. webdog

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    If the physically dead can hear Christ, why can't the spiritually dead?
     
  7. whatever

    whatever
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    When He speaks to them they do hear and live, just like the physically dead.
     
  8. J.D.

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    This verse contains the most ignored word in the entire bible: because

     
  9. reformedbeliever

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    Try reading the entire Gospel of John in the context of being born again. In the first chapter it starts in the context of: John 1:12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    Many will now say that belief came first. The text does not say this. If you read in context you will see that it says they were born and hense believed, not because of the natural birth, not because of what race they were born into, not because of any exertion or will on the part of flesh of any man, not because they sought God or any will on their part, but of God!
    Please just do this! Read the entire Gospel of John in that context and then truthfully tell me if you can, that men are born again because of their will or because they first believed. Grace and peace
     
  10. J.D.

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    Great advice. Also, read through John and note every time you find the individual words "born" and "of God". Also, do the same with "hear, hearing, heard" and "voice, word".

    My wife was a rabid arminian until she studied the book of John, line by line, letting it "lay flat" (just taking it for what it actually says). By the end of Chapter 12 she had converted to sovereignty and hasn't looked back to free will since.
     
  11. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    John

    Me, i can not be a calvinist or an arminist, because both of them have one side of the coin and cannot believe the other is speaking the truth.

    When I read John I see that they were His, because of Jesus came into His own.

    He simply disowned them not because they were not His in the first place, but because of thier unbelief.

    I pray that you can study the scripture that i put in my last post.

    It takes two for love baby.

    God first loved us, we have to love Him back.
     
  12. J.D.

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    You're not gonna get many Baptists of any stripe to agree with you on that statement. God NEVER disowns His children. I don't think even Pelagius would say such a thing. Is that what you really meant to say?
     
  13. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    scripture

    Scripture clearly teaches that if we disown Him, He will disown us.

    How can you disown someone if it wasn't yours.

    Scripture teaches Jesus came into His own and His own did not accept, and if you disown Jesus He will disowns you.


    As long as we remain in Jesus, Jesus will remain in us. Jesus cannot disown Himself, so the only hope we have is to remain in Jesus.

    As the scripture teaches those who stand firm to the end shall be saved.

    ...Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

    Our hope is in Jesus not in election for even the natural branches was broken off for unbelief, God's own.
     
  14. J.D.

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    According to your profile your church is "prestonwood". Is that what Jack Graham is teaching you, or are you just freelancing? You sound like a Free Will Baptist (full arminian). I don't think Prestonwood is Free Will Baptist.
     
  15. psalms109:31

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    Scripture

    I am not a free will baptist or a remormed baptist. I 'm a Bible Baptist.

    The Baptist when I started, believed that the whole world can come to Jesus and God made us the messenger of it. Only @ the cross does men have a choice.

    The church have been going away from the truth, and Jesus said I must start in Jerusalem, and the Baptist church is my Jeruselum.

    This disease goes much deeper than the local church, and I cannot cause discord within my church. So I come to a debate area, and maybe God can use me to reach someone deep within the heart of these disease and see again the hope that Jesus has given to the world through Jesus, that He has made us messengers of.

    We have good news for the world not the bad news what the disease has brought within the church.

    My wages of my sin is death, so I cannot not save myself, no matter what I do. The only hope i have is Jesus, He paid my wages. Penalty of my sin I cannot pay for it will not be salvation but death. So I am saved by grace not from works that I might boast, for Jesus did the work for me. I can only boast in Jesus.

    The same hope I have God has given to the world through Jesus and we are messengers of it.

    We have good news.
     
  16. Blammo

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    The verse does not actually say they cannot hear, it simply says they do not hear. Could it be they actually do hear, but they do not receive what they hear? Kind of an "in one ear and out the other" sort of thing, or a "talk to the hand" kind of attitude. These guys believed they were righteous, they were full of pride, they were the type to say "God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican."

    James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

    I realize this verse is written to saved individuals. But, would God's attitude toward lost people be any different?

    John 12:47-48 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
     
  17. reformedbeliever

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    Yes Blammo, that is truly what is being said. Isaiah 6:9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
    10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
    They heard but could not hear with the heart. They could see but not see with the heart. That is why the phrase "open the eyes of my heart". That is the work of Holy Spirit. Grace and peace
     
  18. Jarthur001

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    Hello...I'm late on this thread, but I have a few things to say, as always. :)

    I would agree with others. If you read the whole book the context is clear as day. This maybe a long post or two, but after a quick overview the meaning is clear.

    I'll not look at all the verses, but I would like to look at a few in each chapter, mainly around the word believe and or “believers”.

    I understand that each of these passages will need to be addressed on their own. I look foreward to doing so when the time comes. Right now here are some details about grace that many overlook.



    Where is one overlooked passage. The word believe and the word commit are the same word in the greek with the meaning of trust. Many believed, but Jesus did not trust in them for He knew their hearts. They must have beileved for the wrong reasons. This shows believing in God is not all that comes with faith. They believed Jesus was maybe a great man, or even from God. Understand is knowing that you are a sinner and needing set right before God, and that Christ can save you from your sins. The Devil believes in God.


    John 3..

    That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


    Check out the word listeth. The greek word thelo. Christ is telling Nic about being born of the Spirit. BTW..it should be noted Nic did not understand this teaching, and this comes from the greatest teacher of all times. Thelo is used 210 times in the NT. In the KJV it is translated ...will/would 159, will/would have 16, desire 13, desirous 3,
    list 3, to will 2, misc 4.

    Just as it is translated it carries this meaning..

    1) to will, have in mind, intend
    a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
    b) to desire, to wish
    1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
    d) to take delight in, have pleasure

    so is every one that is born of the Spirit….is a key phase here for the wind is just like those born of the Spirit. Holy Spirit brings salvation to whom HE wills. It is for His own delight and pleasure.

    Moving on into chapter 3…


    Chapter 3..
    MIGHT be saved

    *** Here is a good verse. Notice the truth is before the coming to the light. Now this is one of two things.

    Works salvation..
    Or..
    Election.

    In short…whosoever will 33, 36…no one will receive ..32

    Chapter 4..

    The Father is the one seeking his worshippers. Man does not seek after God. (Romans 3)

    Chapter 5…
    These are 2 key verses in Chapter 5. Notice the Son has the power and can give life to the dead, both Spiritually and physical dead. Notice all those that are physicality dead will HEAR and be made alive. Not so spiritually. Those spiritually dead He will make alive based on His will. Does he have the power to make all alive spiritually? Yes He could have, but it is accounding to His will and not mans will and this was not His will or the Fathers will which He came to do.

    Chapter 5..
    Same idea say Romans 3.

    Chapter 6…

    The Father gives, the Son dies for all and saves all and keeps all that the Father gives.

    Chapter 6…
    How many men? EVERY man that hath heard(has understanding)…comes to Christ.

    Chapter 6…
    Chapter 7..

    These verses again were to just showing that the same subject starts in chapter 1 and moves all the way though the book. Therefore chapter 8 is full context in which I have address already in another thread.
     
  19. Blammo

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    John 8:24-28 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

    __________________________________________________________

    As to the ignored word "because":

    Matthew 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

    Matthew 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

    Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

    Mark 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

    Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

    Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

    1 Timothy 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

    Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

    Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
     
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Yes, that was a few sentences earlier in v. 43. The "hearing" here is understanding. Jesus was not questioning their ability to hear his words. He was saying that they could not understand. It was a word of ability.
     

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