Trying to understand

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Trust in the Lord, Oct 12, 2003.

  1. Trust in the Lord

    Trust in the Lord
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    If mass is a perpetual sacrifice then what sins did Jesus not die for?
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Hebrews 10 states that Christ was sacrificed "ONCE for ALL TIME" it states that He put an END to sacrifices and offerings. He was offered ONCE for all, according to that chapter.

    What Isaiah 53 is to the Jewish church -- Hebrews 10 is to the Catholic Church.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Frogman

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    Since Constantine refused baptism until he was on his death bed because he feared committing an uncleansed sin after receiving baptism, to point to the atonement in Christ is only a diversion of our Catholic friends.

    They really understand baptism to be that which cleanses of sin, therefore, any sin committed after the fact must be atoned for in another way, there is after all only one baptism. So, to speak of the atonement of Christ is used only to fool those like myself who are sometimes dull of hearing into thinking, hey, these guys really believe as I do, what is the problem?

    Just some of my thoughts regarding your question. Now, hopefully a Catholic will address and will make his/her attempt to show me in error or speaking in unchristian love. Yet does history speak so concerning Constantine? Then why did he refuse baptism? Who taught him what he believed, a baptist? Couldn't be because a baptist will not teach such error concerning baptism, and our Catholic friends cannot claim this a baptist teaching as they deny the presence of Baptists until the reformation. Thus, we must conclude Constantine received his instruction through the hiearchy of Roman Caholicism itself and no doubt directly from the Pope.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  4. Trust in the Lord

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    Is this true? :eek:

    Posted by Frogman
    "They really understand baptism to be that which cleanses of sin"
     
  5. Trust in the Lord

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    Bob Ryan:

    What Isaiah 53 is to the Jewish church -- Hebrews 10 is to the Catholic Church.

    I hope I am understanding what you are trying to say...Orthodox Jews for Isaiah 53 and Orthodox Catholic for Catholics?

    Are Orthodox Catholics not allowed to read Hebrews 10?
     
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Probably is true. Why else would they practice infant baptism?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  7. Trust in the Lord

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    I lost track of my other post so this is the question that I want an answer to...

    If mass is a perpetual sacrifice then what sins did Jesus not die for?

    I was quite interested about this and I would like to know what would be an answer for it....I was told that it is a sin to even think about this question? Is this true? That is if you are a catholic.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    No - both can read the chapters in question. But the chapters "hold the key" for each group.

    Isaiah 53 holds the "key" to the real mission of the Messiah for anyone willing to read and believe.

    Hebrews 10 holds the "key" to the ONCE for all sacrifice of Christ AND the once for ALL TIME offering of that sacrifice. If our Catholic bretheren would simply read it and believe it - the entire system would come to an end.

    See the thread here on idolatry in the mass. There you will find an opening quote by a well respected Catholic commentary on the Baltimore Catechism declaring that the worship in the Eucharist is "idolatry" if the RCC is in correct and the bread is not in fact - God Himself.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Trust in the Lord

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    any catholics out there that could answer my question?
     
  10. Trust in the Lord

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  11. Carson Weber

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    Hi Trust,

    You asked, "If mass is a perpetual sacrifice then what sins did Jesus not die for?"

    The former priests were many in number because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; whereas Jesus is one. There's the single priesthood, and he lives forever up in heaven. But he holds his priesthood permanently because he continues a priest forever. Consequently, he is able for all times to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

    We have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven. Notice that the Lamb is the one enthroned in Revelation. The Lamb and the firstborn Son of the Passover is the priest who ministers in a sanctuary, the heavenly sanctuary. He is a minister in the heavenly sanctuary and the true tabernacle which is set up not by man but by the Lord.

    "For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices. Hence it is necessary for this priest to have something to offer."

    Jesus is a priest in heaven ministering now in the sanctuary and he's got something to offer and he's continually offering it. He's just not bleeding and dying and suffering any more. He's not killing any more animals, but he's continually offering the once and for all sacrifice which is himself; but it's a continual sacrifice. It's a perpetual offering. He's not dying, but he's still offering. That's exactly what the Catholic Church teaches about the Mass.

    The Mass is an unbloody sacrifice because it is a participation in the heavenly liturgy described by the Book of Revelation. In that heavenly liturgy, the sacrifice offered is Jesus' glorified, resurrected body. This is what the Mass is - a participation in that heavenly worship and in that perpetual sacrifice, which Christ offers in the heavenly sanctuary.

    In the Old Covenant, the liturgy was an imitation, a mirroring of heavenly worship (Cf. the Qumran Essene community). In the New Covenant, our liturgy is an actual participation (Gk. oikonomia) in the heavenly liturgy, and the Incarnation is what makes this possible: the unification of space, time, and matter with the divinity. At the Last Supper, Christ instituted the worship of Christians "in Spirit and Truth" whereby we would participate in this heavenly worship. The Greek word for "do this" that Jesus uses can also be translated as "offer" (Gk. poiete, Cf. Ex 29:38 LXX). He essentially commanded his apostles to offer the Eucharist to participate in Christ's offering in heaven. We partake in the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ in the Mass.. the resurrected, perpetual offering of heaven.

    Christ's sacrifice is "once for all". It occurred once in time so that it would be present "for all" perpetually in heaven. The resurrection is what makes the "once" of the sacrifice on Calvary available "for all".

    I should probably continue in explanation, but I've got to start studying for an exam I'm going to take in 13 hours, and I didn't want to leave you hanging.

    [ October 13, 2003, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
  12. Carson Weber

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    We learn so many cool things in grad school when studying theology.. here's another quick thing I wanted to add in before I hit the books again. I'm studying for an exam that involves the Biblical sense of remembrance, which we did a whole study on w/ my professor who is a NT Biblical scholar, and so this study sheds some light on the Last Supper.

    When Jesus said "Do this in remembrance of me", in Luke 22:19, the Greek transliterated into English is "Totou poiete eis tan emen anamnesin." Anamnesin comes from the root anamnesis or "remembrance". In the OT, when God "remembers" the covenant, he renews the covenant - and this is a demonstration of his covenant faithfulness. Anamnesis - from a Biblical perspective - has far more meaning than a mere cognitive recalling of a past event. It has covenantal connotations.

    Essentially, since Jesus' sacrifice is the sacrificial offering that forges the New Covenant, this covenant is renewed every time the sacrificial feast is celebrated, and so we celebrate the Last Supper in "remembrance", that is, to renew the covenant that God has made with humanity through the sacrifice of the God-man.

    As St. Paul writes, "For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us, therefore, celebrate the feast".

    In the OC, covenants were sealed and renewed by partaking in the covenant sacrificial meal. This is essentially what the Passover seder/haggadah meal was - which is exactly what Jesus was celebrating at the Last Supper.
     
  13. Trust in the Lord

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    Carson Weber
    Thanks for taking the time out of your studies to reply to my question.

    you said (and I am trying to understand this)

    My understanding of this is that Jesus never finished what he was to have done on earth. His body finished the job by the bleeding and the suffering and dying but his task of sacrifice was not completed on earth but to be continued forever in heaven. Did I understand this correctly? Please reply
     
  14. CatholicConvert

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    Hello "Trust in the Lord"

    May your name be what we all do with all of our hearts.

    Your question is one of many that I had to ask myself as I approached the Catholic Faith 4 years ago (wow....has it been that long already!!).

    In order to understand the work of Christ, you must go all the way back to the Fall. In the Fall, Adam, acting as the covenantal head of humanity, severed ALL OF US (Rom. 5:12) from having relationship with God. We are born into a humanity which is not connected to God.

    The sacrifice of Jesus REUNITED humanity and bridged that gulf CORPORATELY so that humanity is no longer facing this great gulf between us and God. In esssence, Jesus died for the sin of Adam in this sense. That is one reason that He is called "the Last Adam" (1 Corin. 15:45). He has taken the place of Adam as the Head of humanity as a man and has paid the full price for Adam's sin and rebellion.

    Now each man gets the opportunity to make his own covenant with God through Jesus Christ. Mankind is still separated from God at birth. But now there is a real brige between God and man which we might cross over and enter into the kingdom as covenantal children.

    When we are baptized, we enter into the New Covenant of Jesus' Blood Sacrifice. Our "original sin" i.e., that state of separation we inherit as children of Adam, is washed away and gone. The separation is mended, the rift is healed. God becomes our Father by the adoption of grace through Christ.

    But remember, this is a COVENANT....and covenants have TERMS AND CONDITIONS!! If you read Deut 28-29, you will see a covenant being made between the Jews and God and you will get a complete outline of how a covenant works.

    I know where you are confused. You have been taught that once we "accept Jesus" we have it made in the shade. Our sins are all paid for...past, present, and future. Unfortunately, this is simply not so. God does not look the other way when we sin, nor does he "clothe us in Christ's righteousness."

    What He does do is to provide THE Lamb of God for us when we sin. But we have to apply the sacrifice. And this is basic covenantalism. Covenants can be broken, for a covenant is another way of saying "relationship." Look at Ezekial 16, with especial emphasis on verse 8, which is beautiful. Verse 8 describes the making of a covenant --- MARRIAGE --- a relationship between two people.

    Covenants can be broken. They can be broken because a relationship can be broken. When one party decided to disrespect or disobey the terms under which they were covenanted together, they no longer have a relationship. And if severe enough, they no longer have a marriage.

    The sacrifice of Jesus is applied only once to us to bring us into our love relationship with God. THAT SACRIFICE can never be repeated. But it must be continually reapplied as we sin against our divine lover.

    Now, about the issue of it being repeated....do you realize that the sacrifice of the Cross was an eternal reality long before mankind even was created? Look at this:

    Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Remember...God is timeless. You see the Cross as a one time event that can never be repeated. God has always seen it and it will always exist. Do you know that in timeless eternity, Jesus is still hanging on the Cross before the very face of God as a propitiation for His wrath against sin? God is not bound by time. The Crucifixion is always there.

    And all we are doing when we celebrate the Eucharist as a sacrifice for our sins is making present in time that which is eternally before God. In a divine mystery, that which is in heaven comes to earth for us to partake of for the forgiveness of sins.

    And when we do, we renew and restore the covenant relationship with God.

    There is a good foundational book you can read free online about this. It was written by a Presbyterian, Ray Sutton. It is found at

    I.C.E. Free Book Site and is called THAT YOU MAY PROSPER -- Dominion by Covenant.

    Sutton gives the basics on how a covenant functions. What he misses is the familial structure. If you would read Scott Hahn's book A FATHER WHO KEEPS HIS PROMISE, you would get the structure on the foundation Sutton builds. Then you have the whole enchilada!! :D

    I hope you have some further questions for us so that we can break this down further. When you understand it, it is really a very beautiful concept.

    Brother Ed
     
  15. Carson Weber

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    Hi Trust,

    You are correct in your understanding, as far as I can tell. When Jesus said "It is finished" on Calvary's Cross, he meant the "Passover" is finished; he said this after partaking of the final cup of the passover, the cup of consummation (the wine on the hyssop branch).

    This work wasn't enough for our justification. Christ still had yet to rise in the resurrection for our justification. See Romans 4:25.

    Jesus' sacrifice in heaven is the same sacrifice he offered in time: his body. But, in heaven, this sacrifice is no longer bloody; the sacrificial flesh has been glorified. The resurrection takes up the entire life of Jesus Christ from Incarnation to Death (all of which is salvific), thus enabling its fruit: the resurrected Body of Christ, to serve as our High Priest's perpetual offering and the means by which we are incorporated into the human life of Jesus Christ. If our High Priest in heaven doesn't have a sacrifice to offer in heaven, then he isn't our High Priest anymore, but the Book of Hebrews (and the Book of Revelation) describes Jesus as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Christ is our priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, who, incidentally, offered a sacrifice involving bread and wine.

    In the Mass, we partake in this heavenly worship. As St. Paul says, we participate (oikononia) in the body and blood of Christ when we celebrate the Eucharistic Liturgy (Cf. 1 Cor 10:16).
     
  16. Eyes on Jesus

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    what was the point of Jesus even dying on the cross if he was not to finish his work on earth? Don't you think that, that makes God a liar? Everything that Jesus did on Earth was for us for past, present, and future. The sacrificing was to be finished on earth because of what Jesus did for us on the cross...he sacrificed himself for us...when he say "it is finish" it means that everything that he was to do on earth was completed. Not that "well I think I have did enough so I will do the rest in heaven"

    Come on you guys...Jesus finished what needed to be finished on Earth....there is no sacrificing in Heaven even as we speak....Jesus did it ONCE AND FOR ALL....NOT Most of it and the rest in heaven.
     
  17. Carson Weber

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    Hi Eyes,

    You asked, "what was the point of Jesus even dying on the cross if he was not to finish his work on earth?"

    Because the fruit of Jesus' death is his resurrected body. The Epistle to the Hebrews tells us in Chapter 8:

    "Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the sanctuary and the true tent which is set up not by man but by the Lord. For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer."

    Did you catch that? Jesus is in heaven right now offering sacrifice as our High Priest.

    when he say "it is finish" it means that everything that he was to do on earth was completed.

    Not according to St. Paul. According to the Apostle, Jesus was "raised for our justification" (Romans 4:25). When Jesus said "It is finished" on the Cross, he was referring to his fulfillment of Passover. He said this directly after partaking of the fourth cup, the cup of consummation, which completes the Passover seder meal. When he celebrated Passover with the eleven in the Upper Room on Mount Zion, he distributed the third cup of blessing, they sang a hymn (the Great Hallel of the Passover seder meal), and then they departed for the Mount of Olives.. thus leaving the Passover incomplete. Jesus partook of the final and fourth cup when he partook of the wine upon the hyssop branch. This is when he said "It is finished". That is, "[The Passover] is finished".

    "Our Paschal Lamb has been slain, now let us celebrate the feast" (1 Cor 5:7).
     
  18. Eyes on Jesus

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    Jesus is not in heaven offering sacrifices he was the sacrifice....it was finished on earth...the sacrifice was done on earth.
     
  19. Carson Weber

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    Hi Eyes,

    You wrote, "Jesus is not in heaven offering sacrifices he was the sacrifice....it was finished on earth...the sacrifice was done on earth.

    But that's not what Scripture says! ;)

    See my above post where I quoted Hebrews 8. In this chapter, we are told that Christ is our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary and that it is necessary that he has something to offer.

    What Christ offers perpetually in heaven is his glorified humanity, the fruit of the Paschal Mystery. This is why he is portrayed as a Lamb, standing as if slain, in the Book of Revelation, which portrays the heavenly liturgy.
     
  20. Eyes on Jesus

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    Hebrews 7:25 - Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
    27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

    Jesus was made an high priest of a higher order:
    Hebrews 8
    4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

    The earthly ministry of an high priest, is different, than that of the ministry that Jesus was given after he was glorified, therefore no sacrifices are done in heaven, but he intercedes on our behalf, before his Father, he prayed for us when he was on the earth,John ch:17, and he is still praying for us now, good thing to, for it is easy to be deceived, when our eyes are not on JESUS.
     

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