TULI doctrines not found in scripture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Apr 29, 2011.

  1. Van

    Van
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    I believe that four of the 5 points of Calvinism are false doctrines.

    T = Total Spiritual Inability, being dead in our sins means we are unable to receive the gospel in a manner that would result in Salvation. This is false doctrine, the parable of the four soils, Matthew 13:1-23 tells us that some folks lost their limited spiritual ability to understand the gospel by the practice of sin which harden there heart and they became like the soil next to the path. The other soils did respond to the gospel, so they had limited spiritual ability. Therefore Total Spiritual Inability does not fit with scripture.

    U = Unconditional Election before Creation where God chose foreseen individuals before they did anything such as putting their faith in Christ. This is false doctrine. When are our names entered into the Lamb's book of life? After creation. When are we chosen? After we have lived without mercy. How are we chosen, God credits our faith in Christ and puts us in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit. 2 Thess. 2:13

    L = Limited Reconciliation, Christ died for the elect only. This is false doctrine, Christ paid the ransom for all and became the propitiation for the whole world and God is reconciling the world, one believer at a time, through Christ. 1 John 2:2.

    I = Irresistible Grace, the idea that 100% of those drawn by the Father are placed in Christ. This is false doctrine. Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that folks who have been drawn and are entering heaven can be turned aside.

    P = Perseverance of the Saints, once saved always saved. This is sound doctrine. When we are born again, God keeps us so that we will inherit our reward in heaven by protecting our faith. 1 Peter 1:3-5.

    This view was challenged not by addressing the verses cited above, but by citing other verses claimed by Calvinism to support the doctrines. Here is the list:

    Total Depravity: John 6:44, 6:65; Romans 3:10-18, 8:6-8; Ephesians 2:1-3
    Unconditional Election: John 6:37, 6:39, 10:29; Romans 8:28-29, 9:10-23; Ephesians 1:11
    Limited Atonement: John 3:16, 10:11, 10:15, Romans 5:12-19
    Irresistible Grace: John 6:44, 10:4, 10:27; Ephesians 2:4-9
    Perseverance of the Saints: John 6:39-40, 10:27-29; Romans 8:1, 8:29-30, 8:35-39, 11:29; Ephesians 1:13-14; Jude 24-25

    My position is there is no actual support in scripture for the TULI, and there is support for P. So why am I not able to discern the supposed support cited above? Because the supposed support depends on redefining words and adding unwarranted inferences to “create” the support.

    Let me just address the cited support for Total Spiritual Inability.

    Does John 6:44 say mankind is unable to respond to the draw of the gospel unless altered by irresistible grace? Of course not. Does it say to be drawn by the Father means compelled by irresistible grace? Of course not. It simply says unless you are drawn by the Father, you will not come to Jesus. So the supposed support rests on defining drawn to mean drawn by irresistible grace. And this is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13 so John 6:44 actually provides no support for Total Spiritual Inability.
    Does John 6:65 provide any support? No, again. It says no one can come to Jesus unless granted by the Father. Does this say only the pre-selected elect are granted the capacity to come to Jesus? No. What it actually says is if God hardens your heart, like He did with the non-believing Jews in Romans 11:7;25, then you will not be able to come to Jesus. In John 6:65, Judas is in view, hardened so that scripture would be fulfilled.

    Does Romans 3:10-18 provide any support for Total Spiritual Inability? No, of course not. If we start with verse 9, to get the context, we see that Paul is supporting the premise that we all sin, we are all under sin, and therefore whether we are under the Law or apart from the Law, we stand condemned. What Calvinism does is take this perfectly straightforward passage and invent support for spiritual inability. Verse 11 says there are none that understand, which begs the question understand what. Calvinism inserts “the milk of the gospel” claiming folks who have not been regenerated cannot understand the gospel. But that assertion is not found anywhere in scripture, especially here. To the contrary Paul says men in the flesh can understand the milk of the gospel, see 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3. Men of the flesh and babes in Christ who have not yet learned from their recently indwelt Spirit, understand the milk.

    Are there none who seek God? This begs the question, Are there none who seek God at all times, or none who seek God at any time? Since the idea is to support that we all sin, the idea would seem to be we do not seek God when we are sinning. Certainly we all sin, and therefore our way of life is futile outside of Christ. That is Paul’s point, not Total Spiritual Inability.

    Note also that the citation stops at verse 18, but if you keep reading to verse 21 you see that Jesus has been “manifested” clearly teaching folks have enough spiritual ability to comprehend the “manifestation.” Bottom line, the passage provides no actual support for Total Spiritual Inability.

    Does Romans 8:6-8 provide support for Total Spiritual Inability? No, of course not. This passage makes three points: (1) the mind set on the flesh is death; (2) the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; and (3) the mind set on the flesh is not even able to subject itself to the Law of God. Every one of these points is clear and requires no additional information to understand its message.. What does Calvinism do? They add in that only regenerate folks are able to set their minds on the Spirit or on God or one the spiritual things that can be discerned by the unregenerate (as taught by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.) So the assertion is without foundation. Next, look at Romans 7:25 where Paul explains that the unregenerate have the capacity to set their minds on spiritual things, but are not able to avoid also serving the law of sin.

    How about Ephesians 2:1-3, does this provide actual support for Total Spiritual Inability? No, of course not. This passage makes two very important points: (1) Before we were made alive together with Christ – by God putting us spiritually in Christ – we were dead in our sin, unable to do anything to save ourselves just as a dead person is unable to act in their own behalf. And (2) everyone starts out in this unregenerate condition, by nature children of wrath. Here Calvinism tried to claim being outside of Christ makes us unable to understand the milk of the gospel. But that is nowhere to be found. And we know from Matthew 23:13 that unregenerate folks can be entering heaven, but have not actually entered and therefore have not yet been made alive together with Christ.

    This concludes the analysis of the support cited by Calvinism to assert Total Spiritual Inability, and what we have found is none of the passages actually provide any support whatsoever. If you look at the other verses or passages cited for the other doctrines I believe are false, I believe you will find the same thing, only by changing the meanings of words or adding unwarranted inferences can you create support for Calvinism’s other points, except P.

    May God Bless
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    :laugh::laugh:


    The adulterer does not seek God when he is fornicating[sinning] but when he is not fornicating he does seek God:confused::(

    never would have considered this before......yet in psalm 14 God says it differently;
     
  3. annsni

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    I first learned of each of these doctrines not by anything outside of Scripture but by studying the Scripture, seeing these doctrines and then doing some more outside research to see that there's actually a name for all of it!
     
  4. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Any body

    I have no problem with TULIP, even though the first i heard of it was from what I call a Calvinist/Universalist. Who believes everything that a Calvinist believes, but since man can't do anything to save himself, God will save all men.

    So of course my first defence was that you have to believe, that is what makes them saved or condemned. Then they would go to the defence that man can't do anything to save themselves, using the TULIP can you believe it. This debate ended up to be a two year debate any time I had a chance. I ended up leaving the site when I found out that this site even had a place for satanist to communicate and worship satan and I was thinking that this site was like the world church and had to leave it. This site has like a place for every religion split where you can't posterize

    Being new to this at that time i lost many debates, but I will always end up man has to believe, then they would go back to the same thing man can't do anything to save themselves they are dead in sin.

    In the end I believe in the TULIP, but the Gospel after Jesus is lifted up changes all of it. That the words of life that Jesus places before us, puts two roads to believe in Jesus and be be saved or not and continue to condemnation. So God through Jesus Christ has placed life and death before you, so choose life Jesus and live.

    That trusting in Jesus is not work. To give up on our selves and trust in Christ and just His word
     
    #4 psalms109:31, Apr 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2011
  5. Jerome

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    Who needs Calvin? A heavy diet of RCSproul/Ligonier/TableTalk will do just as well:

    From 2007:
    From 2008:
    From 2010
    From 2011:
    Just Scripture indeed! :wavey:
     
  6. annsni

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    So when did I come to believe this Biblical doctrine? Significantly before 2007.
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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  8. Calv1

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    Don't you love those who have never considered these things to be authorities? They open their mouths with their human philosphies, but no content!

    John 6. "You are UNABLE (Total depravity) to come until unless the Father DRAWS YOU (Irresistable Grace), and the one that the Father give Me I will in no wise cast out (Perseverance of the saints).

    Ignore these people Iconoclast, I'm new here, but I know these kind, who love their traditions over what the bible teaches.

    I, even if I am the only one, or whether it "Seems" right, will always give to my Fathers words.
     
  9. Andy T.

    Andy T.
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    First off, this is just creepy. Secondly, it seems very uncharitable, since it is mocking and basically accuses Ann of lying.

    This forum is a mess - the bitterness and rancor is at an all time high in the 5+ years I've been here.
     
  10. annsni

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    I agree. I personally don't remember little details like one comment a year about a particular ministry that someone mentions. It does seem kid of creepy.
     
  11. Jerome

    Jerome
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    Just pointing out that one can get schooled in Calvinism without reading Calvin firsthand.

    Ann, thanks for explaining. I think highly of you.

    And, yes I do have a good memory.
     
    #12 Jerome, Apr 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2011
  12. Van

    Van
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    My position is there is no actual support in scripture for the TULI, and there is support for P. So why am I not able to discern the supposed support cited above? Because the supposed support depends on redefining words and adding unwarranted inferences to “create” the support.

    Almost like a mantra, Calvinists claim they found the TULIP all by themselves in scripture? Why can this claim be found, but just where in scripture they found it is absent? The reason is obvious, no one can find Calvinism in scripture, it was invented and poured into scripture.

    Would anyone know or think "drawn" means "irresistible grace" without ever hearing about irresistible grace? Of course not. Yet the claim is repeated and repeated. It is truly mind boggling. The Bible actually says God draws by lovingkindness. We are attracted to God because of His lovingkindness toward us. That is what is actually found in scripture.

    Bottom line, because the mantra is repeated and repeated, me thinks they doth protest too much. :)
     
  13. Van

    Van
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    Unconditional Election: John 6:37, 6:39, 10:29; Romans 8:28-29, 9:10-23; Ephesians 1:11

    Does John 6:37 say why God gives folks to Christ? Nope. So no actual support for giving unconditionally. Yet the verse is cited as if it did. Who knew?

    Does John 6:39 say why God gives folks to Christ? Nope. So no actual support for giving unconditionally. Yet the verse is cited as if it did. Who knew?

    Does John 10:29 say why God gives folks to Christ? Nope. So no actual support for giving unconditionally. Yet the verse is cited as if it did. Who knew?

    Does Romans 8:28-29 say why God gives folks to Christ? Well actually it does. God gives to Christ those that love God. Is that unconditional? Nope. So the very passage cited to support unconditional election actually supports conditional election. Who knew?

    Does Romans 9:10-23 say why God gives folks to Christ? Nope. It does support the unconditional election, if we pass over the prophecy that the older would serve the younger, for a purpose of God, but not an unconditional election for salvation in Christ. What this passage demonstrates is that God can unconditionally elect folks for His purpose, but it does not support that God unconditionally elects folks for salvation. Who knew?

    Does Ephesians 1:11 say why God gives folks to Christ? Nope. So no actual support for giving unconditionally. Who knew?

    Well what do these verses and passages support? Election for salvation by God. So what we have is the ol "prove "a" and then claim "b" has been proved! Who knew? :)

    But if you look down to Ephesians 1:13 we find we are "in Him" after (1) listening to the message of truth, the gospel of our salvation, and (2) having believed as determined by God crediting our faith as righteousness, we were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. In other words, we hear the call, we respond to the call, God credits our response as righteousness, then God puts us spiritually in Christ and seals us with the Holy Spirit. That is what is actually found in scripture.

    God Bless
     
  14. JesusFan

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    You forgot the part where the Father first drew the person, sent the Holy Spirit to that person to convict them of their own sinfuless, and the HS used the Word of God to be agent to save them AFTER he had quickened their spirit to actually be in a position to receive/believe it...

    God Foreknew/saw those who He would elect unto eternal life in Jesus...
    He MUST first prepare them to receive and believe by quickening them allowing them to actually turn to Christ and be saved...

    pretty simple, all a work of God from start to finish!
     
    #15 JesusFan, Apr 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2011
  15. Iconoclast

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    Van, I give you credit for posting your error and opposition to the truth of God ....openly.... We know that it is not given for all men to see the truth of God..
    Again, Jesus is the judge of all such persons as He alone sees the heart.

    If however many people are questioned what you "see" or "perceive"
    it might be wise to reconsider your quoting verses and saying they do not say or mean what they do.
     
  16. webdog

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    Iconoclast, you basically called out Van's salvation...yet state only Jesus knows the heart? I'm curious why questioning the salvation of others is quite allowable on this board...but public rebuke of those doing such things and defending oneself and those being attacked is not? Quite the double standard.
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    Webdog,
    This whole thread is claiming that those who hold the doctrines of grace are holding to unscriptural and false doctrine. That these doctrines are only held by those who would believe error. Clearly both ideas are not truth.
    According to Van, if any believe this their God is a "monster" which I find offensive, but I think I understand why it is posted.
    What do you think I should do webdog? Thank him for such a series of misguided posts?

    Read the verses offered. Jesus taught the truth is given by God,and the understanding is Given by God.

    Now read Vans post.....he lists verses than says they do not teach what they teach. You should question this instead!
    These directly contradict Jesus, and the direct teaching of Scripture.

    You are okay with these statements?

    Are you claiming that truth does not have to be Given by the Holy Spirit?
    Does God withold truth from some people according to MT.13?
     
    #18 Iconoclast, Apr 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2011
  18. Baptist4life

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    This entire board is full of double standards. I'm finding that out quite clearly. Frankly, I've about had enough.
     
  19. webdog

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    Its a shame. You'll see what I mean shortly.
     

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