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Tulip: Irresistable Grace

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by SpiritualMadMan, Dec 11, 2010.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I refer you to Bill's recent statement about regeneration and conversion in the previous post.

    Otherwise you are left with the circular dead-end argument "we are all lost sinners and so we are all lost sinners" without getting to the crux of the Gospel.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    ge:

    The gospel!!
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    GE:

    You said it perfectly: 'God the selector-for-regeneration', BLASPHEMOUSLY: "capricious arbitrary"!

    YACK!

    Can a Christian talk like it?
     
  4. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    We are lost sinners until God, in His mercy and grace, make it possible for us to be born anew. There is no action of a human that can change our position.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    God is the "First cause" in salvation.

    God so loved the World that He gave. John 3:16

    God in Christ says "I will draw all men unto Me" John 12:32

    God says that Christ is sent as the "Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world". 1John 2:2.

    John 1 Jesus is the "light that coming into the world - enlightens every man".

    John 16 The Holy Spirit is sent to "Convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

    So when the argument is made that man cannot save himself - and that God must do something - all can readily agree! And wonder of wonder God HAS done something in sending "His Son to be the Savior of the World" 1John 4:10-14.

    Where we differ is the point were some 5 point Calvinist insist that "yes but that is not enough to save a lost sinner". The Arminian response is "oh yes it is because that John 12:32 drawing of ALL enables the choice for ALL that depravity disabled". "All have sinned" Romans 3 and "ALL" are drawn John 12:32.

    As we see in Rev 3 "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #25 BobRyan, Dec 18, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2010
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    At the very end, it is Christ who first of all stands at the door, knocks, and calls and promises HIS WILL performed.

    Think of Lazarus.
     
  7. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    You, somehow, have a problem with God doing the selection for God's own reasons.

    Wonder why that is?

    Is God not sufficient enough to make the choice based on criteria that only He knows? Or, perhaps, if God alone choses who is or is not elect, then YOU may not be one of the chosen ones and that terrifies you to the core of your being -- as it absolutely ought.
     
  8. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    Indeed... Lazarus could do NOTHING. :thumbs:

    Let's also consider the testimony of Paul

    How exactly did that work? Let's see. Paul was seeking God, and "in faith" prayed that Jesus would come and save his soul.

    Whoops... My bad. Didn't quite work that way, did it. :saint:

    Seems that Paul was an enemy of Christ, and was on his way to persecute Holy Spirit believers. God directly intervened, and yes, had His way with Paul in one of the clearest salvation testimonies in all of Scripture.
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Of course if one believes that the atonement is not yet complete, and that it is still being carried on in heaven with Christ investigating the sins of those on earth who claim to be believers, no wonder one might be terrified. They would never have any assurance of salvation or forgiveness of sins. Their religion would be solely based on works.
     
  10. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    God is the ONLY cause in salvation or it would not be by "grace." - 1 Cor. 1:29-31

    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.




    We love him BECAUSE he first loved us - 1 Jn. 4:19

    1 Jn. 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.


    We choose him BECAUSE he first chose us - Jn. 15:16

    Jn. 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


    We continue in Him BECAUSE "He worketh in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure" - Philip. 2:13



    We continue until the end BECAUSE what God hath begun in us "he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" Philip. 1:6


    We have a heart to obey him because He first gave us a new heart and a new spirit:

    Deut. 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

    Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

    Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.





    We are UNPROFITABLE servants because there is nothing we have done, will do or can do that can merit any aspect of our salvation.

    Lu 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.



    Rom. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

    Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;



    Jn. 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
    20 ¶ And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
    21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
    22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus......
    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


    The word "MEN" is not in the original, the term "pas" translated "all" is found without the definitive article and literally means "all kinds" or "all classes" when found in the anarthous construct.

    The above application to "GREEKS" (v. 20) as "THE WORLD" (v. 19) in opposition to JEWS with the use of the anarthous construct of "all" is the only way to harmonize this context with John 6:44-45, 64-65 where Jesus defines "draw" to be the Father creating saving faith in those he gave to the Son (Jn. 6:36-39) which consists of both Jews (Jn. 6) and gentiles (Jn. 12). as the elect consists of all classes, conditions and races.

    Context, context! John is writing to JEWISH believers. He is writing to "my little children" who were those already familiar with the "old commandment" (v. 7). John's ministry was to the "circumcision" (Gal. 1:9 "Peter, James and John...they would go to the circumcision). The single most error among JEWISH BELIEVERS was the idea that the rest of the world must become Jews (Acts 15:2). This error had been condemned by the apostles (Acts 15) and all John is doing here is reaffirming that Christ died for the "whole" world and not "for us only" (JEWS).


    This is spoken in the CONTEXT of the Word as the CREATOR (Jn. 1:1-3) and every human being is born into this world with the light of CONSCIENCE (Rom. 2:14-15) that gives them the LIGHT of right and wrong. However, there is no salvation in conscience on condemnation and so all men are "condemned already" (Jn. 3:17-18).

    Rom. 1:19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:



    Jesus is talking about a brand new mission that goes beyond Israel, beyond the Jews (Lk. 9) but to THE GENTILES (Mt. 28:19; Acts 1:8) including both Jews, half Jews and half gentiles (Samaritans) and Gentiles or the whole world in regard to all classes, conditions, races of mankind:

    ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


    No! We do not agree. You do not believe God did anything to save anyone but merely provided a meal on a table and said come and get it as though they (1) wanted to eat and as though they (2) could come and as though (3) they could digest it when the Bible clearly denies all three inferences:

    1. There is NONE that seeketh after God...NO, NOT ONE - Psa. 14:2/Rom. 3:10

    2. There is NONE that understandeth - Psa. 14:2-3/1 Cor. 2:14

    3. There is NONE that have a tastebud for things of God - Rom. 8:7

    You PRESUME ability where there is none. You PRESUME capability to understand where there is none. You PRESUME a heart and mind willing where there is none.

    God did not merely provide a redemption but "obtained" the redemption (Heb. 9:12). He did not merely come to save but actually does save "his people" (Mt. 1:21). He did not merely seek the lost but were given a people by the Father to save that He will save every single last one (Jn. 6:36-39) as not a single solitary one that the Father gave the Son will fail to come to the Son and not a single solitary one that comes to the Son will be lost but each one given "will be raised up at the last day" securely saved.


    This text is not addressed to lost people. This text is addressed to those who already have "ears to hear" and who are saved baptized church members in a back slidden condition. There is no absence of relationship but only fellowship. He does not chasten Satan's children but his own children (Heb. 12:5-7):

    19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
    21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
    22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


    You have nothing to support your error.
     
    #30 Dr. Walter, Jan 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2011
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Thank you for your very beautiful, inspiring and consoling statement of faith ... 01-01-2011, 02:08 PM, Dr Walter.

    GE
     
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