Twisted Historical Logic

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by Mark Osgatharp, Aug 3, 2003.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Starting in the latter part of the 19th century it became popular to teach that Baptists originated with the Protestant Reformation. One of the arguments used to promote this theory is that since the English Baptists were different in doctrine from the continental Anabaptists that they did not have the same origin.

    It is also argued that, since the Pre-Reformation Anabaptists were different in doctrine from latter Anabaptists that they were not historically connected. Laying aside the theological problems inherent in this question, let's look at it strictly from a historical perspective.

    By applying the modernist revisionist historical "logic" to more modern circumstances, we can see just how absurd their conclusions are.

    1. Campbellites and Baptists are at theological odds - therefore Campbellites didn't originate among the Baptists.

    But Campbellites did originate among the Baptists. There are many Campbellite churches existing today which were orginally Baptist churches.

    2. Charismatics and Baptists are at doctrinal odds - therefore Charismatics didn't originate among the Baptists.

    But the reality is that there are many charismatic churches that were at one time Baptist churches. As a matter of fact, when the Assemblies of God denomination was first organized there was a whole local association of Missionary Baptist churches in north Arkansas that went over in mass into it's organization.

    3. The "General Baptist" denomination in America is an Arminian body - therefore they did not originate among the Calvinistic Baptists.

    But they did originate among the Calvinistic Baptists. The founder of this group was sent as a missionary out of a Calvinist Baptist church in Indiana. After establishing a new church he openly declared his opposition to Calvinism. Later, the churches that grew out of this movement abandoned the doctrine of eternal security as their founder had abandoned Calvinism.

    4. Modernist Baptists and Bible Believing Baptists are at diametrical odds, therefore they have no historical kinship.

    But, as we all know, they do have historical kinship. Baptist churches that were once doctrinally sound are now theologically bankrupt. There are even churches where the membership is split between Christians and modernists.

    Ironically, the Baptists who are the most theologically destitute are the very ones who would disown some group in the past because they don't pass Baptist doctrinal muster!

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. R. Charles Blair

    R. Charles Blair
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    Mark- Sounds like a "Wynner" to me! I've been through your town a time or three - did you ever know a Baptist pastor named Dee Speer? He and I were good friends; I believe he was there quite a while.

    By the way - do you have some fuller details on the group of Missionary Baptists that left for the charismatics? I'd be interested.

    Charles Blair - Ro. 8:28
     
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Seems odd that the first so-called English Baptists of 1600 were from Holland and baptized on the Continent.
     
  4. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    In 1569 the Baptists had become so numerous in England as to cause alarm within the government. Sir William Cecil, secretary of state under Queen Elizabeth, stated in an offical memorandum:

    "The state of religion many ways weakened by the boldness to the true service of God; by increase of the number and courage of the Baptists, and the deriders of religion; and lastly by the increase of the numbers of irreligious and Epicures."

    John T. Christian, whose extensive work in Baptist history has been wantonly ignored by Baptist acedemia, records this fact in volume one, pages 205 and 206 of his "History of the Baptists."

    Where has it ever been proven that this refers to something other than a "Baptist" or "Anabaptist" as the terms were used in the 1600s?

    The modernist Baptist historians argue that 16th century English Anabaptists weren't Baptists because they didn't dip. Then they argue that John Smyth started the English Baptists even though he didn't dip. And then they have the gall to claim they are the "scolarly" historians and that all others are ignoramuses! LOL!

    The fact is, it has never been proven that any of the English Baptists ever did any thing other than dip. Neither has it ever been proven that the terms "Anabaptist" and "Baptist" were not used to refer to one and the same people (at least insofar as Baptists can be considered one and the same people).

    Whatever John Smyth and his followers did is of no consequence to the English Baptists, for they did not originate with him. The quote I gave above proves this point.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  5. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    If you care to read the history of the Welsh Baptists, you will find a group of Baptists did exist even before the so-called English Baptists of John Smyth. In fact, a Welsh pastor was invited to preach to an assembly iin the Midlands and led to the formation of three Baptist churches. They had no connection to the Smyth group, which was a mixed bag of Arminians and Calvinists. The Welsh Baptist were all Calvinistic.

    It is also a worthy note that Queen Elizabeth I was immersed as an Anglican. Immersion was the tradition before the Presbyterians took control of the Parliament. It was at that time sprinkling became the norm in Anglican churches. Baptistries still exist in some Anglican churches in England.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  6. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Charles,

    No, I don't know the man you mentioned. I'm not a Wynne native. I've only lived here about 7 years.

    Neither can I give you any further information on the group I mentioned. I read that a couple of years ago in a web-site relating to Assembly of God history. I tried to find the site but was not able. I did, however, find this site which give an instance of a similar bolting of Baptists to the Pentecostal movement.

    Here is it.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  7. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
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    A good non-Baptist review of the idea is found in "Anabaptist Influence in the Origin of the Particular Baptists." (Glen Stassen, Mennonite Quarterly Review, Oct. 1962) I don't agree with all the conclusions of Stassen, but it is refreshing to see a Mennonite scholar recognizing the connections at a time when many Baptists are trying to deny them. How one interprets the facts is one thing; to deny the connections of the English Baptists to the Continental Anabaptists is historical ostrichism (sticking one's head in the sand).
     
  8. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed
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    This reminds me of the Missionary Baptists(as well as the Campbellites-Church of Christ) who refuse to acknowledge their links to the Primitive Baptists.

    How quickly we forget.
     

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