Two good arguments for a Pretrib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Jan 10, 2015.

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  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
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    1. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

    2. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30, 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10, 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18)

    So others what do you say? Did I tell you to buy a book? NO I did not because I know eschatology better than I know other theological arguments. Books are quite helpful, but the scripture is the authority.
     
    #1 evangelist6589, Jan 10, 2015
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  2. RLBosley

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    You're not serious are you? Is this really your good argument for pre-trib?
     
  3. evangelist6589

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    Its two of them but I have many others to cite. Care to rebuff them???
     
  4. RLBosley

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    Eh. I'm bored so I might as well.

    Give me some time to post a response.
     
  5. evangelist6589

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    Apparently they are stronger than what you said at first.
     
  6. RLBosley

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    Uhhh.. you realize it does take time to type right?
     
  7. RLBosley

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    Deut. 4:29-30 is not the so-called Great Tribulation time but a prophecy of the Babylonian exile. It's irrelevant.

    Jer. 30:4-11 is talking immediately about the exile as well though it does point forward to the time when Christ would be established as King over his people. But you're assuming that the kingdom must be literal physical Israel. The use of Amos 9 in Acts 15 shows that the apostles saw the gathering of the church, Jews and Gentiles in Christ, was the ultimate fulfillment of the regathering of Israel.

    Dan. 8:24-27 is not about the end times specifically. Though it may prefigure it.

    Dan 12:1-2 is about the resurrection to eternal life and eternal death. Both come at the end of this time of trouble. There is nothing definitive regarding the tribulation here at all.

    Matt. 13:30, 39-42 actually argues against your position. The harvest occurs at the very end of the age and the weeds (unbelievers) are seen as being gathered first and burned then the wheat (believers - the church) brought into the barn. Of course both happens on the same day, the day of harvest. The wheat isn't gathered some years before the weeds are destroyed. Has nothing at all to do with the tribulation and clearly paints a picture of the believing and unbelieving residing together until the very end of the age - not the believing being removed a couple years before hand. It's interesting that you cut off verse 43 since that verse shows that the righteous will shine in the Father's kingdom at the same time as the wicked are burned.

    Matt 13:48-50 same as above only the imagery is fish instead of wheat. The good and bad are together until the very end. No pre trib rapture even hinted at.

    Matt 24:15-31 if you want to interpret this as the actual end of the age and the physical second coming, then you need to pay attention to what Jesus actually said, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" he would gather the elect. He's talking to the disciples and in verse 14 he refers to the preaching of the gospel. Clearly the idea is that the church will be present and endure through this tribulation not be rescued out of it beforehand.

    1 Thess. 1:9-10 I'm not sure what this has to do with the tribulation. Unless you assume wrath in verse 10 is the "Tribulation." The wrath we are saved from is hell not tribulation. Also, Paul is telling the Thessalonian church that they are looking for the return of Jesus in the flesh, not an invisible "coming" where they go to him instead.

    1 Thess. 5:4-9 Same as above. Wrath means hell and condemnation not tribulation. We are appointed to salvation (eternal life) not wrath (condemnation). Also Paul again argues for the believing to be watchful for Christ's return as we are children of the day in contrast to the wicked who are "asleep" as children of darkness. The imagery is a single return where some, the church, expected it. The rest, the wicked, are caught completely by surprise and suffer wrath.

    2 Thess. 2:1-11 completed undoes the pre-trib rapture. It does not support it. Chapter 1 of 2 Thess shows that Christ will return, physically, to take vengeance on the unbelieving and at the same time be glorified in those who believe - that is the church. Can't be pre-trib, it's impossible. Chapter 2 continues that theme and says the ay of the Lord is the day of our "gathering to him", clearly the rapture. The day of the Lord has already been seen as when he comes to judge the unbelieving. Chapter 2 continues to show that Jesus will return after the apostasy and the appearing of the "son of destruction."

    Rev. 4-18 I'm so sick of this argument I'm not even going to bother responding to it.
     
    #7 RLBosley, Jan 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2015
  8. annsni

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    Umm - remember that it does take a few minutes to look up the Scriptures you posted and write a response to them. Not only that, he responded at 7:30 am on Saturday morning and unless he's on his second cup of coffee, he will be a little slower to type than normal. ;)
     
  9. RLBosley

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    LOL. Sadly I am on my second cup of coffee... I've been up since 4:00. :eek:
     
  10. evangelist6589

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    Granted I spoke too soon.
     
  11. JamesL

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    My son does, too.

    He'll ask me to guess what he's thinking, and I'll scrunch my eyebrows. About 3 seconds later he asks again. So I squint. About two seconds later he says "DAD, GUESS !!"

    And I'll say "for cryin' out loud. Can I have a few seconds to think?"


    btw, before you can fully argue this supposed Israel/Church distinction, you should ponder...what are we to think of those believers who fit neither?

    Like Seth, Noah, Enoch, and even Abraham, who all lived and died before Israel. In the minds of Dispensationalists, there are only the two entities.

    And before you take a knee-jerk approach, remember that the supposed distinction is not only Eschatological.

    When the Ninevites repented, were they part of the church? Couldn't be, if the church began in Acts. But they sure weren't part of Israel.

    So...define church, as it is supposedly distinct from Israel in Dispensational thought.

    Broaden your horizons a little, and don't be afraid to think for yourself
     
    #11 JamesL, Jan 10, 2015
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  12. blessedwife318

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    Also Evan was making an argument from silence which is really weak. There are much better arguments although even the best ones have not convinced me.
     
  13. Greektim

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    They are arguments from silence. Those are the weakest kinds of arguments.
     
  14. RLBosley

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    That too. :thumbsup:

    I felt like pointing it out, and leaving it at that, but I expected the accusation of "not being able to respond to the texts," so I went with that.
     
  15. blessedwife318

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    You gave a good response RLBosley to why those Scriptures do not teach a pretty trib rapture
     
  16. RLBosley

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    :laugh: :laugh:
    Thanks.
     
  17. Greektim

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    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of an absence"
     
  18. Greektim

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    Here is an example of why your argument of silence is weak... cause I can do the same thing.

    Evidence for no 7 year tribulation at all: b/c the Bible doesn't say anything about it!

    I think it is true, but it is not very strong.
     
  19. OldRegular

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    When you have no Scripture to support your erroneous doctrine you 'shuffle your feet" to throw up a cloud of dust, you obfuscate!
     
  20. OldRegular

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    Poor old Scofield just didn't understand what he was saying in his introduction to the Song of Solomon!

    ***********************************************************

    I have posted the following before but it is worth repeating:

    *********************************************************

    Given your justification of the pre-trib-rapture it is doubtful that you know much about eschatology! There is not a single passage of Scripture that teaches a pre-trib-rapture unless you consider the writing of dispensational scholars? as Scripture! I have been on this BB for 10+ years and no one has yet produced such a passage of Scripture because it does not exist.
     
    #20 OldRegular, Jan 10, 2015
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