TWO QUESTIONS FOR CALVINISTS

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Skandelon, Feb 12, 2005.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    1) Why did Adam sin?


    2) Why do regenerate men sin?


    Please be specific and explain your answer. Thank you for your time.
     
  2. Skandelon

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    Anyone?
     
  3. johnp.

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    Hello Skandelon.

    Adam could not have done so without the will of God acting in his will. It was God that willed that first sin. :cool:
    Adam was a tool that allowed God to reveal His glory. To that end anything is acceptable.
    The reason Adam sinned was the means for Christ crucified. The ultimate plan of God who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
    Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge...
    If He can do that to One who is perfect He can do as He pleases with the rest of us. The end justifies the means.
    Because we are sinners.

    johnp.
     
  4. Skandelon

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    Hi JP

    Adam could not have done so without the will of God acting in his will. It was God that willed that first sin. :cool:
    Adam was a tool that allowed God to reveal His glory. To that end anything is acceptable.
    The reason Adam sinned was the means for Christ crucified. The ultimate plan of God who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
    Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge...
    If He can do that to One who is perfect He can do as He pleases with the rest of us. The end justifies the means.</font>[/QUOTE]
    So, you are a hard determinist, unlike Sproul and most who are "soft-determinists?"

    I know Sproul would consider this answer as "casting a shawdow upon the character of God." Certainly we would agree that God permits the fall, but you seem to be arguing that he actively decreed/caused it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Because we are sinners.

    johnp.
    </font>[/QUOTE]But we have the ability to sin or to not sin, right? There must be a determining factor. What is it?
     
  5. johnp.

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    Hello Skandelon.

    I've been called worse! :cool:
    It's the permitting Adam and Eve that gets me. I was attending a housegroup years ago when an elder stopped me by saying, "You are taking God's Sovereignity too far." After a short pause he said, "No, you can't can you?" That is where I am.
    I get the impression that this permitting means that at the moment of choice Adam was sovereign and God was not.

    Anyway I know I make myself a bad smell by saying God is the Author of sin. It's what I believe. I do not write this as something that I will not let go off but I write it to get shot down. It is not comfortable being out of the loop, I'm much happier being orthodox. So I wait to see if any can persaude me otherwise.

    I have not read Sproul. There are probably many that think as he does. I think they subtract from God's Sovereignity by trying to appease man.

    No we have no ability not to sin as we are sinners. We are not sinners because we sin we sin because we are sinners. Our spirits have been made alive but the judicial sentence of not guilty did not affect our fallen nature. That must still die. We only become perfect as we die, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect Heb 12:23.

    Good works are fine but we must never think they amount to much for us. We fall short all the time. All the time, not often, all the time because we are sinners.

    johnp.
     
  6. ScottEmerson

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    At least you're consistent, johnp. There are several others on the board who say define God's sovreignty a certain way, and then deny God's responsibility.
     
  7. Skandelon

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    That's true. He is consistant and unbiblical.

    I think its the biblical revelation that he is actually attempting to harmonize his views with, thus giving this appearance. But you have pointed out exactly why Sproul's views cannot be harmonized with scripture.

    How do reconcile that with 1 Cor. 10:13 in which God promises to provide us a way to escape temptation?

    BTW, JP God's sovereignty is known through his revelation of the scripture, not through philosophical human logic. Don't sacrifice the former for the latter.
     
  8. Wes Outwest

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    Can one who has never raced be a racer?
    Can one who has never driven a vehicle be a driver?
    Can one who has never riden a horse be a rider?
    Can one who has never acted be an actor?
    Can one who has never lied be a liar?
    Can one who has never sinned be a sinner?

    Until one sins, one is not a sinner!

    We are not sinners until we sin our first sin!

    Man is in the same condition now as when Jesus came to dwell among us. He is the only who ever lived that did not sin! But, he showed that it is possible to do so!
     
  9. billwald

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    Adam sinned because living in the Garden wasn't that good a deal and God knew it.

    Regenerate men sin because they still have a sin nature. Regeneration is (only)a classification for the next life.
     
  10. Skandelon

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  11. johnp.

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    Hello Skandelon.

    No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
    Yes that is right in a way because even if we escape the temptation we are still sinners overcoming temptation. Overcoming temptation does not cause us to be righteous but it does have the tendency to make us selfrighteous. Not overcoming temptation does not cause us to become unrighteous, we are anyway, but can have a tendency to make us know we are sinners in need.
    You can have some real close times with God when you recognise sin. Not our sins, they are only the symptoms of the sickness inside us, but our sin.
    So if we can overcome the temptation by the escape route provided by God we will feel good about ourselves when we should see ourselves as unworthy servants. Out of the fying pan and into the fire so to speak.

    If we were to examine our reasons for doing anything then we must see that everything we do is for selfish motives.
    That is our fallen nature and that prevents us from ever doing anything good until we are made perfect.
    There are no shades of grey. It is black and white. The white is white and the black is black. Righteous or unrighteous.
    God is Sovereign that I know because the bible tells me so.
    Scripture alone. Everything else is vain.

    johnp.
     
  12. johnp.

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    Wes.

    Correction.

    I wrote.
    Sorry I will amend that to:
    :cool:
    Of course Jesus did not sin He is God and I thought you believed God can't sin. Do you think that He set us an example to emulate? To be like God by our own sinlessness and righteousness? Or do you think He prefers the truth and the acknowledgement that you are a dirty little sinner like the rest of us?
    PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

    Can one who has never raced be a racer? Yes.
    Can one who has never driven a vehicle be a driver? Yes.
    Can one who has never riden a horse be a rider? Yes.
    Can one who has never acted be an actor? Yes.
    Can one who has never lied be a liar? No.
    Can one who has never sinned be a sinner? No.

    Why do babies die? :cool:

    How many did I get right Wes?

    johnp.
     
  13. Monergist

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    If this nonsense were true (which, of course, it isn't) you would be compelled to accept the corollary---'We are not righteous until we commit our first righteous act.'
     
  14. whatever

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    Because he wanted to.


    Because we want to.

    Where are we going with this?
     
  15. whatever

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    Hello johnp.

    Don't know if I can persuade you, but the problem I have with this view is that I think you say more than Scripture says about God's role in the fall. I don't think "determined" and "Author of" are equivalent, and it seems that you do.
     
  16. Skandelon

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    Because he wanted to.</font>[/QUOTE]

    Why did he want to sin if he was without a sin nature?


    Because we want to.[/quote][/qb]

    If we are able to sin and able to not sin, then clearly we can "want" to sin or "want" to not sin. I'm asking what determines which "want" we follow. In other words, what is the determining factor of the choice? What caused the desire?
     
  17. whatever

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    I'm not sure that we are told why. We do know that he was not deceived. I think that means that he made the choice to disobey. Some say it was because he didn't want to give up the woman, but I think that's speculation. I don't know why.

    We follow the desire that is stronger at the moment.
     
  18. Brandon Tallman

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    I beleive Adam sinned because God created the potential for sin.Simple?Yes!I beleive that man is inherently self desructive.God created man with free will.Man can choose or choose otherwise,and then man learns from his mistake.We know that prior to the fall man did not know sin, but man could have known foolery.
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    But you forget that Adam was inexperienced, a blank slate, an empty sponge, a man without the Knowledge of good and evil.

    So what made him sin?

    He had nothing with which to make a judgement call except God's command to not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden lest you surely die? Die? What is that God? That's right Adam had not heard of or witnessed death! He knew nothing about any of that, yet He sinned by disobeying God! Why? What is the serpent known for? Beguiling Eve. Deceiving Eve and Adam through crafty words.
     
  20. johnp.

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    Wes.

    God's command is our judgement call. He did not open up a discussion forum.
    Making excuses for their failure is not good.
    You err badly, Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 1 Tim 2:14. You have left scripture.
    Adam allows his lover to taste death first. But he made a mistake. He waited and watched while his wife took the first bite. As she did not seem to die he then ate of the fruit, a thing he desired, and then both died spiritually. ...She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. Gen 3:6-7. When he ate they died.
    Lack of knowledge you say. Adam was no fool if not being a fool consists in letting others take the risks first. To love fell first. Adam was under a solemn duty to protect his wife not use her as a guinea pig.

    johnp.
     

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