Two Questions

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Rev. Joshua, Jul 2, 2003.

  1. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    Two questions, one perhaps more involved than the other:

    1 - Do you folks actually refer to homosexual persons as "sodomites" outside of thie message Board? Before coming here, I though only Fred Phelps and is merry gang of lunatics used that term. Yet I see generally reasonable, sincere Christians using the term here as if that's the word they use in normal conversation. Is that the case for any of you?

    2 - Do we really believe in the Holy Spirit? I was giving a devotional yesterday at a Christian support group for HIV-positive people. The leader of the group is gay baptist minister. As I talked with some of the folks after the devotional, I wondered how many folks from here would have insisted that the most important thing I could have said to them was "Repent of thine sodomy thou foul and heathen sodomites!"

    I didn't, of course, because I'm rather fond of heterosexual sodomy and I don't think homosexual sodomy is a sin either. Nevertheless, we did talk about the gospel. My question is this: Regardless of what I may teach them about homosexuality, if I teach them to study the Scriptures prayerfully, to repent of their sins, and to pray earnestly in the name of Jesus for the guidance of the Holy Spirt; can't we trust the Holy Spirit to correct my error in this area if I'm wrong?

    Joshua
     
  2. USN2Pulpit

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    As to your first question, no I don't - on this board or anywhere else. "Homosexual" or "gay" is enough to describe the pertinent subculture.

    I find agreement with you on the view that the Holy Spirit teaches believers. I differ with you on my understanding of the sinfulness of practicing homosexuality, and would not hesitate to say so in public forum. However, at this point in my ministry (having yet to truly begin) I can't imagine spending an entire sermon on the subject.

    Rev J, just out of interest, you stated that you didn't believe homosexual sodomy is sin. What about pre-marital or extra-marital homosexual sodomy? (Understand, I'm not trying to inflame, just trying to understand your point of view.)
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

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    The comparison to Fred Phelps is very disingenuous as he hates the sinners. He does not care for their souls. God told us to love the sinner and hate the sin. I refer to gay people as lost people who need Jesus. Homosexuality is a sin. It would seem to me that God probably saw sodomy as a sin. But, that is something else we will disagree about as I believe the Bible and you...well...reinterpret the Bible to make yourself feel better.

    2 - Do we really believe in the Holy Spirit? [/QUOTE]

    Yes.

    I was giving a devotional yesterday at a Christian support group for HIV-positive people. The leader of the group is gay baptist minister. As I talked with some of the folks after the devotional, I wondered how many folks from here would have insisted that the most important thing I could have said to them was "Repent of thine sodomy thou foul and heathen sodomites!"[/QUOTE]

    This is ludicrous as we all know that not everyone with HIV recieved it through the sin of sodomy. I figure as much education as you have, you probably ought to know that. If it were a group of gay people, I would preach the word to them, and yes, I would let them know that the lifestyle that they chose is against the will of God and that they need ton repent. I have done so with friends in the past and they have repented and been set free from their sin. Loving the sinner does not mean candy coating the sin. Allowing a friend to destroy their lives without at least informing them of their error is not loving. I would not let my child walk in front of a speeding car because I love them. And I will not let my child go through life not knowing the difference between right and wrong or the Gospel of Christ because it might not make him feel good about himself. This is the problem I see with liberals. They would happily allow their families and friends go to Hell just as long as they go to Hell feeling good about themselves.

    I didn't, of course, because I'm rather fond of heterosexual sodomy and I don't think homosexual sodomy is a sin either. Nevertheless, we did talk about the gospel. My question is this: Regardless of what I may teach them about homosexuality, if I teach them to study the Scriptures prayerfully, to repent of their sins, and to pray earnestly in the name of Jesus for the guidance of the Holy Spirt; can't we trust the Holy Spirit to correct my error in this area if I'm wrong?

    Joshua
    [/QUOTE]

    This is also very disingenuos when we all know that you are a "minister" who endorses the lifestyle of sodomy, both hetero and homosexual. The other problem is that you don't teach the scriptures. Rather, you teach your distorted, liberal interpretation of scripture.

    Joshua, I consider you a friend. But, I will not candy coat the truth just to make you feel better. I believe what you teach is sinful and is of the spirit of anti-Christ. I do love you, friend. But I also hate the sin that you endorse.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  4. Don

    Don
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    Interestingly phrased. If we answer no, then we don't trust God. If we answer yes, then we should shut up about all kinds of false doctrine.

    In other words, the way you've worded your question, there is no right answer.

    Instead, I submit to you: I believe the Holy Spirit uses each of us in matters like these, and that those that are standing against what you believe are just possibly being used by the Holy Spirit to correct your errors....
     
  5. Jailminister

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    Question One. I use Sodomite everywhere. That is what God calls them(he also uses the word dog, but that is too confusing for most people, so I just use Sodomite). The word homosexual is a physcological word that cam into being in the latr 1800's. Gay has nothing to do with the sodomite lifestyle, so Sodomite is the correct word.

    Question Two. irRev Joshua said " Regardless of what I may teach them about homosexuality, if I teach them to study the Scriptures prayerfully, to repent of their sins, and to pray earnestly in the name of Jesus for the guidance of the Holy Spirt; can't we trust the Holy Spirit to correct my error in this area if I'm wrong?"

    The regardless is the problem. What you teach does make a difference. You must teach correectly or else you are decieving. You said to teach "to repent of there sins". How can you do that when you are endorsing their sin. You said " can't we trust the Holy Spirit to correct my error in this area if I'm wrong?" maybe the Holy Spirit is trying to correct you right now.

    Joshua, loving someone is a lot more than just agreeing with them. Dealing with their sins and calling them to complete repentance is what is needed if their life is ever going to be anything for God.
     
  6. Johnv

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    I use Sodomite everywhere. That is what God calls them
    That's not biblically correct. The Bible uses the word "sodomite" to refer to a male temple prostitute.

    The word homosexual is a physcological word that cam into being in the latr 1800's.
    "Homosexual" refers to the whole person. It is independent of a homosexual act. Having had homosexual intercourse is not a requirement for being homosexual, any more than having heterosexual intercourse is a requirement for being heterosexual.

    Gay has nothing to do with the sodomite lifestyle, so Sodomite is the correct word.
    "Gay" is a slang term, one that I personally don't like to use. Many people, both hetersexual and homosexual, find the term derrogatory when used in contemporary context.
     
  7. Jailminister

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    Johnv said: That's not biblically correct. The Bible uses the word "sodomite" to refer to a male temple prostitute.

    It is biblically correct. It is a much broader term than just male temple prostitute.
     
  8. Johnv

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    Yes, it's broader by today's language. Most sodomites are heterosexual and married, and have never touched a person of the same sex. If you apply today's application to it, you're condemning a mostly heterosexual and marital act. On top of that, you're adding to the biblical meaning, and as thus adding to the bible, which we're forbidden from doing.
     
  9. JesusisGod2

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    The comparison to Fred Phelps is very disingenuous as he hates the sinners. He does not care for their souls. God told us to love the sinner and hate the sin. I refer to gay people as lost people who need Jesus. Homosexuality is a sin. It would seem to me that God probably saw sodomy as a sin. But, that is something else we will disagree about as I believe the Bible and you...well...reinterpret the Bible to make yourself feel better.

    2 - Do we really believe in the Holy Spirit? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes.

    I was giving a devotional yesterday at a Christian support group for HIV-positive people. The leader of the group is gay baptist minister. As I talked with some of the folks after the devotional, I wondered how many folks from here would have insisted that the most important thing I could have said to them was "Repent of thine sodomy thou foul and heathen sodomites!"[/QUOTE]

    This is ludicrous as we all know that not everyone with HIV recieved it through the sin of sodomy. I figure as much education as you have, you probably ought to know that. If it were a group of gay people, I would preach the word to them, and yes, I would let them know that the lifestyle that they chose is against the will of God and that they need ton repent. I have done so with friends in the past and they have repented and been set free from their sin. Loving the sinner does not mean candy coating the sin. Allowing a friend to destroy their lives without at least informing them of their error is not loving. I would not let my child walk in front of a speeding car because I love them. And I will not let my child go through life not knowing the difference between right and wrong or the Gospel of Christ because it might not make him feel good about himself. This is the problem I see with liberals. They would happily allow their families and friends go to Hell just as long as they go to Hell feeling good about themselves.

    I didn't, of course, because I'm rather fond of heterosexual sodomy and I don't think homosexual sodomy is a sin either. Nevertheless, we did talk about the gospel. My question is this: Regardless of what I may teach them about homosexuality, if I teach them to study the Scriptures prayerfully, to repent of their sins, and to pray earnestly in the name of Jesus for the guidance of the Holy Spirt; can't we trust the Holy Spirit to correct my error in this area if I'm wrong?

    Joshua
    [/QUOTE]

    This is also very disingenuos when we all know that you are a "minister" who endorses the lifestyle of sodomy, both hetero and homosexual. The other problem is that you don't teach the scriptures. Rather, you teach your distorted, liberal interpretation of scripture.

    Joshua, I consider you a friend. But, I will not candy coat the truth just to make you feel better. I believe what you teach is sinful and is of the spirit of anti-Christ. I do love you, friend. But I also hate the sin that you endorse.

    Joseph Botwinick
    [/QUOTE]


    Amen brother Joseph, [​IMG]

    This appears to be a classic case of loving darkness rather than light " I didnt, of course because I am rather fond of heterosexual sodomy"

    it appears that he is willing to let others die in thier sin because he is "rather fond of heterosexual sodomy" rather than expose it as sin and in need of repentance

    John 3:19-20
    "and this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because thier deeds were evil .(20) for everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

    and what is this about a homosexual pastor? or gay minister? either way isn't this an oxymoron?

    Romans 1:32
    "Who, knowingthe judgements of God, that they who commit such things are worthy of death , not only do the same but have pleasure in them that do them "

    since coming to this sight, I am amazed at how many actually approve of sodomy between heterosexuals (not to mention the few that believe that homosexuality is O.K.) The Church needs to open our eyes and look at what the Spirit is saying to the church.

    Praise God for His word is truth!
     
  10. Headcoveredlady

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    Why don't you tell them to repent and get saved?
     
  11. Michael Estes

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    A horrible and shocking thing has happened in the land: The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end? (Jeremiah 5:30,31). What will you do in the end, Joshua? I'll give you a hint. "Both prophet and priest are godless; even in my temple I find their wickedness," declares the LORD. "Therefore their path will become slippery; they will be banished to darkness and there they will fall. I will bring disaster on them in the year they are punished," declares the LORD (Jeremiah 23:11,12). Evangelist Mike Estes.
     
  12. Rev. Joshua

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    Wow, some quick responses beofre I head to the hospital for some pastoral care:

    - USN - extra-marital anything is wrong, period. It violates a covenant relationship. pre-marital sodomy; probably depends on the relationship. Sexual intimacy is a reflection of emotional intimacy. The greater the emotional intimacy, the more intimate the physical contact.

    - Joseph - I value our friendship too, and I enjoy the fact that we can disagree amicably. The Phelps reference wasn't meant to be disingenuous. Before coming here, the only folks I knew of who used that word were raving lunatics. I'm just trying to figure out if people here really use the term conversationally. In addition, I should have clarified that this particular group caters to the GLBT community. Those of us present who were straight were all representatives of the church.

    - Don - Likewise, the Holy Spirit may be using me to correct others. My point is simply that it's not the huge deal that everyone is making it out to be. I'm still presenting the gospel, and the Holy Spirit still has room to work.

    - JM - I agree that loving means more than accepting, but homosexuality isn't morally wrong.

    - JG2 - what's your beef with sodomy between married, heterosexual couples? (See Song of Songs - 2:3, 4:16, 8:2)

    - HCL - Because they're already saved.
     
  13. massdak

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    joshua i have to ask you two questions right back, how can you read romans and see that the homosexual lifestyle is anything other then sin? if a person is trying to witness to people then they must only use the gospel, if they interject their own prejudices then they may harm their own witness. I wonder if the apostle paul would be different in using the derogatory terms to show how exceedingly sinful the homosexual lifesyle / agenda is. I believe the apostle paul would let them know it is bad news to practice the lifestyle, as you should do yourself. now question two, would you heed my call for you to resign and leave your office?
     
  14. LadyEagle

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    No.

    Politically incorrect as it may be, people of all age groups I know call them "homos," "lesbos," "dykes," "queers," or "fags." And if they are bisexual/transvestites, they're called "Shims."

    But perhaps it is best to refer to them as sodomites; it is the Biblical name.

    [ July 02, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: SheEagle9/11 ]
     
  15. Jailminister

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    JohnV. I hope this will help you.

    1Ki 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: [and] they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

    This refers to the breaking of the moral law from the beginning of time and that was given to the Israelites as in writng in Leviticus. This refers to the SIN of SODOMY(homosexuality)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1Ki 15:12 And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.

    This was the removing of not only the perverts of homosexuality but also idol worship.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1Ki 22:46 And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.

    See above--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    2Ki 23:7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that [were] by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.

    This is where the sodomites(homos) were living and they were kick out due their perversion.

    Deu 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. This also refers to the homosexual.

    Now joshua, You said "loving means more than accepting, but homosexuality isn't morally wrong."

    How wrong can you be. It has always been morally wrong. You may deny it all you want to, but that is an absolute 100% fact. Both the OT and the NT says as much.

    You said to HCL, " HCL - Because they're already saved"
    They may be nice, but that is not salvation. They have the wrong Jesus. If they have the right Jesus then they will not be practicing their sin as a lifestyle.
     
  16. JesusisGod2

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    [- JG2 - what's your beef with sodomy between married, heterosexual couples? (See Song of Songs - 2:3, 4:16, 8:2)


    Hi Rev,

    First of all I am glad you see my "beef" is not against you personally and that My "beef" is against sodomy in that it is immoral, unnatural and against the will of God. God never intended woman or man to used in this fashion.

    I have read The verses in Song of Solomon (I am assuming that is what you meant by the Song of Songs) and dont read anything in those verses that justify sodomy or even make reference to it.

    In Romans it says

    Rom 1:24
    "Wherefore, God also gave them up to uncleaness through the lust of thier own hearts, to dishonor thier own bodies between themselves.
    vs 26
    " for this cause God gave them up unto vile affections ; for even thier women did exchange the natural use for that which is against nature
    vs 27
    "And like wise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman , burned in thier lust one toward another, men with men working that which is unseemly..."

    my understanding of these scriptures is that the same unnatural use is performed on both the man and the woman. and God doesnt seem to approve of neither.

    But notice the first thing that is written of this in vs 21
    "because, when they knew God they glorified Him not as God....."

    Brother I am not the one with the "beef" God is. I will pray for you and that God will open yours or my eyes to the truth of this matter.

    Say brother why don't we pray for each other and God will show us the truth. [​IMG] God is beautiful and understands lack of knowledge. but, doesn't tolerate rebellion. But also note that the bible says My people die for lack of knowledge (where this is at escapes me at this time)

    God bless and I look forward to your reply.

    "Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin." Psalm 51:2

    [ July 02, 2003, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: JesusisGod2 ]
     
  17. j_barner2000

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    My answer to all 3 questions is.... Sex outside the bonds of marriage is wrong. Jesus modelled marriage as being between 1 man and 1 woman. Have not seen an example of anything different in the Gospels. Therefore gay, homosexual or any other sexual relationship outside of marriage (by God's standards) is sin.
     
  18. ScottEmerson

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    Plenty of Christians sin as part of their lifestyle. Some are angry. Some swear. Some cheat on their taxes. Are you willing to apply this statement to any sin?

    And is intolerance a sin? (non sequitur, but just wondering)
     
  19. Jailminister

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    Scott you said "part of the lifestyle" if you stumble and fall along the way, God is willing to forgive or if necessary to correct. The sodomite does not see their perverted lifestyle as sin, so there has been no repentance. If someone uses vulgarity and realize what they have done is wrong, that is the power of the Holy Spirit. If that person just cusses and it is just normal for them, then they have more than likely have not been saved.
     
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Plenty of Christians sin as part of their lifestyle. Some are angry. Some swear. Some cheat on their taxes. Are you willing to apply this statement to any sin?

    And is intolerance a sin? (non sequitur, but just wondering) [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]One sin does not justify another. But, the topic being discussed here is not anger, cheating on taxes, or anything else but homosexuality. Homosexuality is a sin. Homosexuals need Jesus just as much as anyone else. It is not ok to be a homosexual just as it is not ok to cheat on your taxes.

    Intolorance is not a sin in and of itself. But, again, that is not the purpose or the point of this thread and is extremely off topic statement made to shame anyone who would dare call homosexuality a sin and dare suggest that a Christian should point out to their friend that the lifestyle they are living is full of the spirit of anti-Christ and is an abomination to God. If you would like to debate whether or not intolorance is a sin, I would like to invite you to start another thread.

    Joseph Botwinick
     

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