Two verses in John. Cross-references?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Aug 19, 2010.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom
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    Two verses in John. Cross-references?

    John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

    John 5: 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


    These are two intriguing verses in John that are just a chapter apart. They have the exact same phrase. Yet, in none of my Bibles do they give these verses as cross-references, even in brackets.

    Usually when a certain phrases is repeated that is good enough to qualify for cross-reference. But there is a different reason not to see the connection here. Two questions, before I go any further:

    1. Does your Bible give John 5:25 as a cross-reference to 4:23?

    2. Do you think that these two verses refer to the same time, the same "now"?
     
  2. kyredneck

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    Yes to both questions Tom. (I'm using Thomas Nelson's 1901 American Standard Version)
     
    #2 kyredneck, Aug 20, 2010
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  3. RAdam

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    My bible doesn't have a cross reference to it. I'm using a Cambridge Concord, which has the original KJ translators notes. Typically they cross reference language similarities well.

    On the other question, yes. I think the phrase "the hour cometh, and now is" really means "here is something that is happening now and is going to keep on happening."
     
  4. kyredneck

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    :thumbs: ..........and there were several other spiritual tenets of the eternal covenant besides these two that 'were not shaken', but remained after 'the removing' of the law covenant.
     
    #4 kyredneck, Aug 20, 2010
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  5. asterisktom

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    Thanks, both of you, for the responses.

    The reason why I brought this passage up is that it brings to light some interesting points. For sake of convenience here are the two passages with certain sections color-coded:

    John 4:19 - 24

    19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
    20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
    21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
    22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
    23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


    And here is John 5:24 - 29
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Aside from being cross-references there are further things worthy of note about the passages. There are two identical phrases in both passages, one of each in both passages. "The hour is coming: and "The hour is coming, and now is".

    "The hour is coming" refers to the day when worship will no longer be tied to a city and temple. The emphasis is more on the invisible than on physical location, John 4:21.
    Also, John 5:28, this same hour brings us to the time when "those who are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth, etc."

    "The hour is coming, and now is" refers to the very times of Christ's earthly ministry: when God is seeking, 4:23, spiritual worshipers, not mere physical acts of prescribed worship. This is in response to the spiritual Word.
    Tied in with this, the spiritual response to the Word prophesied (John 5:25, foretold in Ezekiel 37's Valley of Dry Bones), the spiritually dead (dry bones) are coming to life as they hear the Gospel preached.

    The reason why I quoted from the KJV is that they were very careful with the terms here. The NIV, for instance, changes "hour" to time" - a mistake that blurs the intended message.

    "The hour is coming, and now is" = the Gospel times.
    "The hour is coming" = the end of the Jewish age and the beginning of the Age to come, the New Heavens and New Earth. This all happened at AD 70, and is continuing now.

    Notice that Christ said "hour", not "time", not "age". The indication is one of near-futurity from the time of the speaker. John, in his first epistle (1 John 2:8), wrote that the presence of antichrists already rising up was proof that they (in the 60s) were already in "the last hour". The "last hour" does not extend over two millennia.

    AD 70 fits all of this very well.
     
    #5 asterisktom, Aug 20, 2010
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  6. RAdam

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    Needless to say I disagree on John 5:28 and 29.
     
  7. Jedi Knight

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    I believe John 5:24 is spiritually coming to life and John 5:25 Has the time is coming "future physical resurrection" and now is "spiritually born again",a now and not yet tense to it. John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Son of Man is His title from the book of Daniel. Daniel 7:13 "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,".
    Now the next tie in...
    John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    Now compared with Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
     
    #7 Jedi Knight, Aug 20, 2010
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  8. lastday

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    Lastday

    Tom Riggle,
    On your other site you complain to Eagle that I am being "caustic" to you!
    The same issue arose with Jesus against Pharisees from John 4 through 6!!
    Jesus was "caustic" with them because they were "blinded to the truth"!!!

    If you would follow your own advice, you might stumble onto the truth:
    I am not about to question your salvation; but your interpretation of the
    "background" of opposition that had resulted in Pharisees accusing Jesus
    of "blasphemy" and determining to kill Him...with the backing of Caiaphas!

    You make Eagle/Me guilty of blasphemy unless Jesus is NOT "in the flesh".
    You expect us to accept your heresy that John 5:28 was fulfilled in AD70.
    You refuse to acknowledge that your belief is the "spirit of the Antichrist!!

    Take your own advice and look at the "background" in which the word
    NOW does not refer only to AD 33 to AD 70 but for "2 days" until 2033.
    Jesus had to establish His AUTHORITY as Judge over all mankind...not
    just for 37 years. He was not "hung up" like you on the length of TIME!!!

    Jesus was dealing with the Pharisees and so He was "caustic" with them.
    He healed on the Sabbath to show His authority over the Sabbath. He
    told the man impotent for 38 years to "break the Sabbath" by taking up
    his bed and walking away. He then claimed the AUTHORITY to raise up
    the dead from their graves...not spiritually because we worship God in
    spirit...but physically because that is the only way to demonstrate His
    Authority...even though our worship is done in both our spirit and flesh!

    The only way to deal with your blasphemous stance regarding Christ's
    teaching is to consider your Pharisaical attitude toward His Power and
    purpose to "raise up every person...believers at the HOUR of His future
    Presence and unbelievers after all mankind should be tested to see if
    they will join the sheep nations and inhabit the Kingdom on earth OR be
    the goat nations to be sent to Hell...based on their treatment of Jews!!

    I realize I am off topic, but just as you need to get the Big Picture of
    Christ's AUTHORITY over all mankind acting "in His glorified body of
    flesh and bones" for the past 1977 years plus 23 years yet ahead, you
    need to get the Bigger Picture of His purpose to Judge the Gentiles and Deliver Israel before beginning the final TEST in a Millennial Paradise!!!
    Mel
     
  9. asterisktom

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    Mel, before I go any further, you need to fix this sentence. I have no idea what you are talking about. It is not a complete sentence. It needs a verb I think.

    Sincerely,
    Tom the Pharisaical heretic
     
  10. lastday

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    Tom,
    I compare your background of interpretation as being related to "spiritual" realities but
    not to the Pharisaical misunderstanding of the physical and moral and supernatural realities stemming from Christ's words and deeds. He was "caustic" in responding to the Pharisees who wrongfully accused Him of "blasphemy" because He made Himself equal with God. To support "spiritual" realities you deny His present "literal" existence in human flesh!

    Jesus didn't limit or equate the NOW of His Authority to a time-period ending in AD 70!!

    It seems your constant agenda, to limit the time-period to 37 instead of 2000 years, requires the denial of His continuance in a "glorified body of human flesh and bones".
    The "doctrine of Christ", John states, requires His "continuance in the flesh forever!!!
    Mel
     
    #10 lastday, Aug 21, 2010
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  11. lastday

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    Jedi Knight,
    Very good use of the "now and not yet" time-reference to what continues to this day!
    Tom is incapable of our viewpoint as he spiritualizes the physical reality of resurrection!!
    I find it so undercutting of truth that destroys any refererence to the Doctrine of Christ!!!
    Mel
     
  12. asterisktom

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    casting off the fear of God, adds to His Word:
     
  13. asterisktom

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    For those of you who believe - as I used to - the "now, not yet" interpretive grid: Where do you find in Scripture, either:

    1. the explicit phrase or,
    2. the sanctioned use implied.
     
  14. lastday

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    Tom,
    I agree with you...the phrase "now but not yet" is not in Scripture!
    I referenced this phrase as an example of man's attempt to accommodate their
    understanding of the ongoing nature of God's promise that the "End is Near"!!

    Until people understand that Jesus is still "about to come (it is near; soon) in
    power and glory to reward every believer", they cannot understand that "some
    must taste death after He comes in Kingdom Power" for 1260 days during which
    all Believers will eagerly anticipate His coming in Glory and Power and Presence!!!
    Mel
     
    #14 lastday, Aug 21, 2010
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  15. Logos1

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    So when preterists view the time statements of the bible as meaning near in time near does not mean about to happen; however, when futurists view the time statements as meaning near in time today suddenly near means about to happen.

    In other words the inspired words of the Apostles are meaningless, but futurist’s proclamations are inspired.

    So why did God bother giving us the bible if it is meaningless? Why did he not just say premils starting with Darby are my inspired writers?

    Puzzling.

    “Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

    Oh thanks Mel!
     
  16. lastday

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    Lastday

    Brother Logos,
    It's interesting that, according to you, in my understanding of divine inspiration, the writings of Scriptures are "meaningless"
    while I think your understanding is "astounding"!
    You write:
    Must you establish your viewpoint by being so drastic in your judgment?
    Have I stirred my brother up to that of resorting to such irony and scorn??
    Why would I want to accuse the Apostles of writing what is "meaningless"???

    I'm thinking maybe I better lay off for a short time until you can cool down!
    You are right to claim I am "inspired" in knowing what is "about to happen"!!
    My inspiration comes from realizing "God was inspired" from the beginning!!!
    Mel
     

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