two witnesses

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by C.S. Murphy, May 9, 2003.

  1. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy
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    Who do you think the witnesses are in Revelation chapter 11. Or do you think their identity is unimportant?
    Murph
     
  2. John3v36

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    At this point identity is unimportant.
     
  3. Watchman

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    There has been a lot of speculation on this. The usual choices are Moses and Elijah, as representatives of, "The law and the prophets."
    But all of this is conjecture and, yes, it is really unimportant.
     
  4. Dan Todd

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    LaHaye and Jenkins think its Moses and Elijah in the "Left Behind" series.

    I have heard some say it is Enoch and Elijah - because they are the two O.T. saints who did not see death.

    I do not agree regarding Enoch - as he was not a Jew - and it seems to me that the two witnesses will be someone whom the Jews can identify with.

    Is it important that we know the identity of the witnesses - No. Is it important that we believe that there will be two witnesses - Yes.

    Speculation that is not the basis of doctrine - and that is identified as speculation - can be fun. :D
     
  5. Ernie Brazee

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    Who the witnesses are matters not, as those who are now born again Christians will be gone at that time.

    God reveals all we need to know in His Word, the fact they are not named is an indication we have no need to know. Men waste time speculating who the witnesses are when they should be praying that they would have the power of the Holy Spirit to reach the lost, and motivate their congregation to win souls.

    Natural man tries to elevate himself by proclaiming they have arrived at a conclusion to something God felt we have no need to know.
     
  6. Istherenotacause

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    Though for the time being, it is not important, but I would lean more to Enoch and Elijah, not only because they did not face death and were taken by the LORD, but the fact they walked with God more than Moses did, else Moses would not have died looking over into Canaan. In the case of Enoch not being a Jew, I would have to see it as the Lord having Enoch as one of the witnesses to reach the Gentiles remaining as in concordance with the untiy between Jew and Gentile set to accomplish the cause of God.

    I will be in the Heavenly Grandstand cheering them on, no matter who they are!
     
  7. Grasshopper

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    The House of Israel and the House of Judah.
     
  8. Istherenotacause

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    I'm confused, Grasshopper, what does this mean? Are the Gentiles remaining during the Great Tribulation doomed?
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    Two witnesses with Christ on the Mount were Moses and Elijah. That was what God said and who the disciples recognized (somehow).

    Figure they have experience returning from the afterlife back to earth (every coupla thousand years) so they will do fine in the Tribulation.

    Unless one is a preterist and believe the events of Revelation were "symbolic" or "fulfilled already". Right. :rolleyes:
     
  10. Istherenotacause

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    Your Scripture?
     
  11. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24
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    There is absolutely no question that one witness is Elijah. It is written, BEHOLD, I WILL SEND YOU ELIJAH THE PROPHET BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD: AND HE SHALL TURN THE HEART OF THE FATHERS TO THE CHILDREN, AND THE HEART OF THE CHILDREN TO THEIR FATHERS, LEST I COME AND SMITE THE EARTH WITH A CURSE-Mal 4:5,6. The "great and dreadful day of the Lord" is the day Jesus Christ returns. It is the time of the Battle of Armageddon. Before that day, Elijah will, indeed, come. This is also taught in the Passover feast, as the youngest child is taught to go and look for the prophet.
    During the 1260 days of their prophecy, it appears they will shut off the rain. This seems to happen in the area of Israel or possibly the Middle East, although the Scriptures are unclear what areas shall be affected. Elijah shut off the rain for 3 ½ years in the Old Testament. It is written, THEY SHALL PROPHESY A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND THREESCORE DAYS…THESE HAVE POWER TO SHUT HEAVEN, THAT IT RAIN NOT IN THE DAYS OF THEIR PROPHECY-Rev 11:3,6.

    Elijah never died. He was taken up by God in a whirlwind (or raptured); as it is written, WHEN THE LORD WOULD TAKE UP ELIJAH INTO HEAVEN BY A WHIRLWIND-2 Ki 2:1; ELIJAH WENT UP BY A WHIRLWIND INTO HEAVEN-2 Ki 2:11.
    Some might say, didn't Elijah already come when Jesus was on the earth about 2000 years ago? The answer to this is as follows. Let us remember, there are two comings of the Lord. We are now awaiting His second coming at the time of Armageddon. JOHN THE BAPTIST came before Jesus IN THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH-Lk 1:17. The disciples asked Jesus, WHY THEN SAY THE SCRIBES THAT ELIJAH MUST FIRST COME? JESUS ANSWERED...ELIJAH TRULY SHALL FIRST COME, AND RESTORE ALL THINGS. BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT ELIJAH IS COME ALREADY, AND THEY KNEW HIM NOT, BUT HAVE DONE UNTO HIM WHATSOEVER THEY LISTED...THEN THE DISCIPLES UNDERSTOOD THAT HE SPAKE UNTO THEM OF JOHN THE BAPTIST-Mt 17:10-13. Jesus said, BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT ELIJAH IS INDEED COME, AND THEY HAVE DONE UNTO HIM WHATSOEVER THEY LISTED, AS IT IS WRITTEN OF HIM-Mk 9:13.
    The Scriptures clearly show that John the Baptist came in the SPIRIT AND POWER OF ELIJAH. He had to prepare the way for the first coming of Jesus. The Jews were unable to see that the Scriptures showed Jesus would come twice. Only after Jesus ascended to sit at the right hand of His Father, in heaven, was it understood that Jesus shall return. It is written, BEHOLD, I WILL SEND YOU ELIJAH THE PROPHET BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD-Mal 4:5. Elijah will come in his own body as one of the two witnesses.
    John the Baptist came in the "SPIRIT" of Elijah.
    Elijah will come in his own body and in his own spirit. You might then say, "How is this possible? Did Elijah have two spirits?" The answer lies in the following. It is written, AND ELISHA SAID, I PRAY THEE, LET A DOUBLE PORTION OF THY SPIRIT BE UPON ME. AND HE (Elijah) SAID...IF THOU SEE ME WHEN I AM TAKEN FROM THEE, IT SHALL BE SO UNTO THEE...AND ELIJAH WENT UP...AND ELISHA SAW IT-2 Ki 2:9-12. There was a double portion of Elijah’s spirit. John the Baptist was "one portion." Elijah will come "the other portion."
    Clearly, one of the two witnesses is Elijah.


    There seems to be very little doubt that the second witness is Moses. The Scriptures indicate that both witnesses have to be a Jew. Both Elijah and Moses were Jews. It is written, THESE ARE THE TWO OLIVE TREES, AND THE TWO CANDLESTICKS STANDING BEFORE THE GOD OF THE EARTH-Rev 11:4. The olive tree represents the Jews or Israel; as it is written, THE LORD CALLED THY NAME, A GREEN OLIVE TREE-Jere 11:16.
    These two witnesses are prophets. Moses fulfills this prophecy. It is written, THEY SHALL PROPHESY-Rev 11:3; IN THE DAYS OF THEIR PROPHECY-Rev 11:6. God talked to Moses face to face. Aaron was given to Moses to be his prophet-ref Ex 7:1.
    Many of the miracles that will be done, during the Tribulation, by the two witnesses were also done by Moses previously. The following are some of them.
    It is written, regarding the Tribulation, AND THE FIRST (angel) WENT, AND POURED OUT HIS VIAL UPON THE EARTH; AND THERE FELL A NOISOME AND GRIEVOUS SORE UPON THE MEN WHICH HAD THE MARK OF THE BEAST-Rev 16:2. Moses did something similar in the Old Testament-ref Ex 9:10.
    It is written, regarding the two witnesses during the Tribulation, THESE HAVE POWER...OVER WATERS TO TURN THEM TO BLOOD-Rev 11:6. Moses did this in the Old Testament-ref Ex 7:20.
    When Jesus was on the Mount of Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were together when they appeared to Him. It is written, AND, BEHOLD, THERE APPEARED UNTO THEM MOSES AND ELIJAH TALKING WITH HIM-Mt 17:3; ref Mk 9:4. Again, all indications are that Moses will be with Elijah, during the Tribulation, as the other witness.
    Some may say that Moses was never raptured as Elijah was. This is true; nevertheless, consider the following. When Moses died, the Bible tells us that his natural force was not abated. It is written, AND MOSES WAS AN HUNDRED AND TWENTY YEARS OLD WHEN HE DIED: HIS EYE WAS NOT DIM, NOR HIS NATURAL FORCE ABATED (or gone)-Deut 34:7. Since we would expect Moses to have his natural body when he returns during the Tribulation, we then should be able to understand why Satan wanted to find out where his body was. Apparently, he wanted to destroy it. Nevertheless, no man knows where it is. This should have prevented Moses from returning. As it is written, YET MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL, WHEN CONTENDING WITH THE DEVIL…ABOUT THE BODY OF MOSES-Jude 9; SO MOSES...DIED...AND HE (the Lord) BURIED HIM...BUT NO MAN KNOWETH OF HIS SEPULCHER UNTO THIS DAY-Deut 34:5,6. It seems God is protecting the body of Moses so that, when the day comes, Moses will appear. God demonstrated how He can keep things from decaying or growing old; as it is written, THY RAIMENT WAXED NOT OLD UPON THEE, NEITHER DID THY FOOT SWELL, THESE FORTY YEARS-Deut 8:4.
    Moses wanted to enter the Promised Land, but God told him no. Yet it appears God will yet allow him to enter during the Tribulation. It is written, AND I BESOUGHT THE LORD AT THAT TIME, SAYING, O LORD GOD...I PRAY THEE, LET ME GO OVER, AND SEE THE GOOD LAND THAT IS BEYOND JORDAN...BUT THE LORD WAS WROTH WITH ME FOR YOUR SAKES, AND WOULD NOT HEAR ME: AND THE LORD SAID UNTO ME, LET IT SUFFICE THEE; SPEAK NO MORE UNTO ME OF THIS MATTER-Deut 3:23,25,26.
    Some say the second witness is Enoch, because he was translated-ref Heb 11:5. However, this cannot be accepted, because he was not a Jew, as he lived before the flood. The two witnesses need to be "olive trees" or Jews. Neither does he fulfill many of the other prophecies relating to the two witnesses. There appears to be no other scriptural evidence to support this view.
    There is no question that one of the two witnesses is Elijah. The biblical evidence that Moses is the other witness is very strong. The idea that we do not know who either witness is has to be discounted in view of the Scriptures
     
  12. Tim

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    Quoting Mat. 16:24(the person, not the scripture)--"There is absolutely no question that one witness is Elijah."

    I love these dogmatic quotes about obscure scriptures, especially when followed by convoluted explanations of scripture.

    Maybe this is a good illustration of a common problem in modern fundamentalism.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  13. Dan Todd

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    Good one Dr. Bob!!! [​IMG]
     
  14. Tim

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    Quoting Mat. 16:24 "Elijah will come in his own body and in his own spirit. You might then say, "How is this possible? Did Elijah have two spirits?" The answer lies in the following. It is written, AND ELISHA SAID, I PRAY THEE, LET A DOUBLE PORTION OF THY SPIRIT BE UPON ME. AND HE (Elijah) SAID...IF THOU SEE ME WHEN I AM TAKEN FROM THEE, IT SHALL BE SO UNTO THEE...AND ELIJAH WENT UP...AND ELISHA SAW IT-2 Ki 2:9-12. There was a double portion of Elijah’s spirit. John the Baptist was "one portion." Elijah will come "the other portion."
    Clearly, one of the two witnesses is Elijah."

    Quoting Dr. Bob "Right."

    Tim
     
  15. LadyEagle

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    Ditto: Good one Dr. Bob!!! And Amen! [​IMG]
     
  16. KenH

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    It depends on what eschatological viewpoint one has. I imagine all four of the major viewpoints answer this differently and then the many subsets within each viewpoint probably have different ideas as well.
     
  17. Baptist in Richmond

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    Istherenotacause writes:
    &gt;&gt;I will be in the Heavenly Grandstand cheering &gt;&gt;them on, no matter who they are!

    I really love this statement!!
    I read this, re-read this, and then showed it to my wife. She loves it too. Isn't it an overwhelming thought? Folks, we are going to spend eternity with the One True God.

    Thanks again for this: IT MADE MY DAY!!
     
  18. Scott J

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    I lean toward Enoch and Elijah although the "law and prophets" point does support Moses rather than Enoch. The idea that Enoch was not a Jew falls short IMO since he is in the Jewish lineage and was numbered among those that called upon the name of God.

    I can't help but think that someone who was probably taught by Adam himself would be effective on preaching sin and man's fall.
     
  19. Paul of Eugene

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    I take the viewpoint Moses & Elijah = Law and Prophets = The Scriptures.

    The SCRIPTURES are our WITNESSES!

    Their lying dead in the streets indicates a time is coming when NO ONE WILL BELIEVE the scriptures.

    Their bodies being preserved in Jerusalem is a reference to the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts that are kept there even as a secular world pays less and less attention to the Bible.

    THe breath of life breathed into them means that JUST BEFORE HE COMES people will have some cause to START BELIEVING THE SCRIPTURES again!
     
  20. Baptist in Richmond

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    Paul of Eugene writes:
    &gt;&gt;Their lying dead in the streets indicates a
    &gt;&gt;time is coming when NO ONE WILL BELIEVE the
    &gt;&gt;scriptures.

    Have any of you noticed that it seems like we are already there?
    Remember when Congress was confirming John Ashcroft as Attorney General? I remember someone (Dan Rather, I think) saying that because he was an Evangelical Christian, it could be tough for him. I remember because I was absolutely STUNNED by that statement. We live in a country where being an Evangelical Christian is considered a hindrance to public service.

    I am VERY curious as to everyone's thoughts (especially you, Dr. Bob) as to where this departure from Judeo-Christian values took place. I am only in my 30's, so I would imagine that it started in the 90's perhaps.

    Or is this more appropriate for a new thread???
     

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