Typical Southern Baptist

Actually I know a few Baptists and most are very good Christians. One was a really great evangelizer. He came to talk us out of the Catholic Church. We showed him a few books including the early Church fathers. He is now a Catholic.

 

Hey Dan,

Perhaps my poor attempt at sarcasm has failed me. I'm always better at that verbally.

My point was to show unfruitful such a post is, and yet another one is going on right now, and no one seems to think that libel of this nature is a problem. Moderators anyone?

God bless,

Grant

 

Grant,
I don't think the others in this forum will take this thread all that well. Then again, we are the only two so far that have posted anything. Perhaps they read the other one and didn't want to see the same treatment they were so happy to dish out.
Dan

 

I am SB (a youth minister) and I would agree with your assesment of the typical SB from my experience. Now is this correct for all SBs? No. But I have had similar experiences. But the problem is that I think there are just as many if not more lost people in the church than there are saved. I think that is the problem across the board, including the Catholic church. However, I do see great problems in the RCC doctrine and willing people. With the SBC I see good doctrine and a lack of willing people.

Neal

 

Hello Neal --

I am a recent convert to the Catholic Church. I was thinking the other day about what it is that might be seen and experienced as different. Your post is a nice segue into this:

Before:

Worshipped the Trinty ------ unchanged
Believed in Christ's Deity -- unchanged
Believed that Christs' Blood saves --unchanged
Went to church every Sunday to worship -- unchanged
Believed in baptism -- unchanged
Prayed frequently --- unchanged
Read Bible and other devotional literature --- unchanged
Believe in Heaven --- unchanged
Believe in Hell ----- unchanged
Believe in physical resurrection on the Last Day -- unchanged
Believe that Jesus saves ME, not ME saving ME -- unchanged

After:

More loving to family members than before
More active in church activities
Pray more frequently
Believe that the Sacraments confer grace through union with Christ
Understand the love of the Father better
Am overcoming a long standing "besetting sin" problem
Understand whole of Church as family in much more real sense.
Understand that the Blessed Virgin is my Mommy
Understand that God is my Daddy
Understand that the saints love me and pray for me
Have a patron saint
Have worship that was formulated in the sixth century, not the sixteenth
Have same beliefs as Early Fathers
Understand the reason for the heirarchy of the Church
Follow the pattern of worship set forth in Revelation

It's interesting really. I do the same things that I did as a Presbyterian and Fundamentalist, i.e., I go into the church, I pray, I read Scriptures, I take the Lord's Supper, I confess my sins, and I leave. The WAY I do it may be different, but the format is very similar.

Now when I take the Lord's Supper, it has special meaning because Jesus is really there.

Now when I pray, I pray in His presence.

Now when I confess my sins, I don't have to wonder if I have been forgiven. I hear the words of absolution and know that Jesus in the priest has forgiven me.

Now that I worship, I come to worship God, not to be entertained.

It's very much the same thing, but as we say in the Catholic Church, it is the FULLNESS (completeness) of worship which takes place.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

I don't argue with your personal experience, but I can have a complete worship in my own church as well. It does not have to do with the others around, but with my personal relationship with Christ. But I have a fundemental problem with having a patron saint and have the virgin Mary as mommy. She is not my mommy, and no where in Scripture is it said that I would have adoption by her as my mommy. I can go before the throne of grace even now in my own home, I don't need the church for that. The church is not an institution, it is the body of believers in Christ. I don't need to raise other humans on a special level and worship them. I have more love for my family now and for my fellow man as well than I did before. With all due respect, my fundamental problems with the Catholic church cannot be resolved because many of their stands are unscriptural, and that is my measuring stick. I appreciate your response.

Neal

 

Hello Neal --

The yardstick I used for determining whether or not the Catholic Faith is correct was also the Scriptures. Perhaps an example will suffice:

You claim that you do not have a mommy in the kingdom of God. Perhaps this is because you have not seen the salvational work of Christ in all of its fullness.

When God created Adam, He created a son. (Luke 3: 38) Adam is the son of God. Since Adam is the son of the Great King of Heaven, Adam is a prince. And princes grow up to be kings when they mature and come into the fullness of time. This was the plan for Adam, but unfortunately, his fall from grace derailed that for not only him, but all of mankind.

God's redemptive plan was to restore that which had been lost in the Garden. It is God's plan that He have a HUMAN BEING -- A PERFECT MAN -- to rule over His physical creation. This was Adam's destiny, and we know this because the Scriptures show us God sharing His glory with Adam as a son. God gave to Adam both AUTHORITY and DOMINION. Those are qualities which belonged to the Father, but were given to the son.

Christ is the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45). In noting the use of interchangeable titles (Adam - Last Adam / son of God - Son of God) we see that there is something remarkable going on here. Jesus as the Last Adam is the One Who has taken place of the first Adam. We see this from the beginning of Jesus' ministry, for right after He is baptized, He is driven into the wilderness to face the very thing that caused the fall of the first Adam -- temptation by the evil one. In other words, Jesus picks up right where Adam failed and Jesus is victorious.

And ultimately, Jesus -- the MAN, PERFECT HUMANITY -- is exalted to Heaven and takes the place that Adam was destined for as a man. Everything Jesus is as a MAN, Adam could have had as a MAN. Do you see the parallels here?

So Jesus has restored the lost Garden Covenant. He is the Last Adam. But wait!! If the Garden Covenant is to be completely restored, ALL THAT WAS THERE must be restored also. Therefore, the Last Adam MUST HAVE a New Eve. She must be a HUMAN FEMALE, just as the first Eve was. She must be a copy of the original.

For instance, just as Eve was created "without stain of sin", so, by the application of the Blood of Christ to Her soul before Her birth, the Blessed Virgin comes into the world without sin.
Just as the first Eve was created from the side of Adam, by the shedding of his blood, so the New Eve comes is made possible by the side of the Last Adam being riven by the spear. Without this shedding of His Blood, there would be no last Eve.

Getting the picture a little clearer?

Well, in like manner, Eve means "mother of all living". She is the mother of all the living, for all the living come from the relationship of Adam and Eve. Therefore, it is correct to say that the New Eve, the Blessed Virgin Mary, is the mother of all believers (those who truly are "alive in Christ") because without Her consent to union with the Holy Spirit, the Savior would never have been born. Therefore, She really IS your Mother, whether or not you acknowledge it.

And, since the first Eve was the daughter of a king, and therefore a princess destined to become a queen in co-rulership with Adam, so the New Eve, the HUMAN FEMALE who has replaced Eve, was a princess who was elevated to the fullness of Her state as a Queen. She is the Bride of God, which therefore makes her Queen, and She is Mother of a King, which makes Her Queen Mother.

In other words, if you take Adam and Eve and transpose them to Jesus and the Blessed Virgin Mary, you see why the Blessed Virgin must indeed be Queen of Heaven. It was the destiny of the HUMAN FEMALE called Eve to be this. She forfeited that exalted position, but God would not have His plans thwarted, but instead brought to the universe another Eve, the New Eve, who reigns with Jesus, but IN SUBJECTION TO HIM from Heaven. Remember, Eve was created not as a co-equal in authority, but as a "helpmeet". To fulfill the type, we must insist that the New Eve, while Queen of Heaven, is nonetheless subject to the One Who is King of Glory.

It's Scripture. But it doesn't LEAP out at you and say this. It must be, like the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, be exegeted from the whole.

I do not doubt that you have relationship with the Lord. The fullness of that relationship, however, still awaits you in the Church which our Lord founded upon St. Peter. It is the completeness of that which is the joy of your life.

Brother Ed

 

With all due respect, that sounds like a great argument, but with absolutely no Scriptural support on the part about Mary. Yes, Christ is the second Adam, but the part about Mary being the second Eve is new to me and absolutely not supported by the Word of God. In a weird way you are saying that Mary is now the wife (Eve was the wife of Adam, remember that is where we get the basis for marriage) of Christ, the woman who is His mother. That is kind of sick when you think about it. Yes, she is blessed above all other women because she bore the Lord Jesus Christ. But at the same time, she is human and falls under the category of Romans 3:23. She did not stay a virgin, as Christ had brothers and sisters. And Joseph is referred to as her husband, not God. And just because someone is blessed that does not mean they are exalted to a level to be worshiped. Sorry, while it is a well thought out story, it is exactly that, a story, not supported by any Scripture.

Neal

 

With all due respect, that sounds like a great argument, but with absolutely no Scriptural support on the part about Mary.

Okay then, WHO is the New Eve. If Jesus is the Last Adam, then WHO is His Eve? And you cannot say "the Church" because the Church does not have flesh and blood as we humans do. God must restore and redeem that which was lost EXACTLY as it was lost, which means He must deal with FLESH AND BLOOD HUMAN BEINGS.

THINK: God COULD HAVE redeemed us without going to all the trouble of taking on our flesh. He's God. But there's a reason He did it the way He did. He needed to restore that which was lost in the Garden, and you don't restore apples with oranges, nor human beings witn angels or spiritual beings. You replace like with like.

If there is no New Eve, then that which was lost in the Garden is still lost and the redemptive plan of God is incomplete.

Yes, Christ is the second Adam, but the part about Mary being the second Eve is new to me and absolutely not supported by the Word of God.

I just showed you how it is supported by the Word. You have to do exegesis. And the Early Church Fathers in their writings referred to the BVM as the "New Eve", so I am in good company. Perhaps if you familiarized yourself with a little historical writing you would find I am positing nothing which is particularly new.

In a weird way you are saying that Mary is now the wife (Eve was the wife of Adam, remember that is where we get the basis for marriage) of Christ, the woman who is His mother. That is kind of sick when you think about it.

Okay. Time to drop the bomb on ya, pallie boy:

Isa 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

Your problem is that you are thinking of marriage in purely sexual terms. Marriage is UNION. The sexual act is merely a reflection of the union of two people in their wills and actions. But you can have union in the will and emotions without having physical intimacy.

Yes, she is blessed above all other women because she bore the Lord Jesus Christ. But at the same time, she is human and falls under the category of Romans 3:23.

Well, Jesus -- THE MAN -- was human also. Does that mean that Rom. 3: 23 applies to Him also. After all, it does say "ALL", right?

She did not stay a virgin, as Christ had brothers and sisters.

She is the Bride of God. You are telling me that God would allow His Bride to commit adultery with another man? You are telling me that as a holy person She would want to?

And Joseph is referred to as her husband, not God.

Joseph was her husband, but YOU do not know what that term means. The Blessed Virgin was a consecrated temple virgin, given to the service of God for her lifetime. Joseph was appointed as her "husband" in order to protect and provide for her, not to have intimacies with her.

Joseph was an older man with children from a previous marriage. As such, these were the "brothers" of Jesus.

And just because someone is blessed that does not mean they are exalted to a level to be worshiped.

No one worships the Blessed Virgin. Sorry, you are a tad mixed up there. We honor Her, but neither I nor any Catholic I know has ever performed an act of worship worthy of God to Her.

Sorry, while it is a well thought out story, it is exactly that, a story, not supported by any Scripture.

Typical Baptist. Give you Scripture and you reject it without even sitting down to think and wonder "what if......

Why don't you ponder the story of the Garden, consider what it means for Adam to be "the son of God" (I was SHOCKED when I first encountered that name for him) and work your way through what it was that God intended to do with Adam and Eve. Then think about what COULD HAVE BEEN if they had not fallen.

Brother Ed

 

Here you assert that Christ is polygamist!
The bride of Christ is that body of all believers which have put their trust in Him, which He is even calling out unto Himself to this day. He describes it in Ephesians 5. He has no other bride. God is not a poygamist. He has no other bride. No wonder the Muslims are confused on the trinity!
DHK

 

DHK --

Man, if you EVER learn how to do exegesis I am going to have a heart attack!!

One is the symbol of the other. The seen is the representation of the unseen (Heb. 8:5)

Theologians for centuries have seen this. This is why the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Church are often referred to in interchangeable ways.

Again, it goes back to your exegesis. Typical Baptist, you think in terms of "either/or". Catholics look at the Scriptural descriptions as "both/and".

For instance, Jesus is the Lamb of God and the Lion of Judah. Both/and, not either/or.

Brother Ed

 

Hi all,

Typical Southern Baptist or Born-again Christian are successors to the "witnesses of Jesus," by their blood, who preserved the faith once delivered to the saints, and kept the faith as they were originally committed to the primitive Churches. They are the lineal descendants of the martyrs who, for so many ages, sealed their testimony with their blood. They by their blood trace the history of communities, back through the "wilderness," into which they were driven , they were lighted up by a thousand stake-fires, until that blood mingles with the blood of the apostles, and the Son of God, and John the Baptist. "Many attempts have been made to exterminate them. Like their earlier brethren, ‘they had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover, of bonds and imprisonment; they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword they wandered about in sheep-skins and goat-skins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented. They wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.’ But the ‘blood of the martyrs' was the seed of the faith.’ Light has succeeded darkness, hope despair, prosperity has followed adversity, and to-day the Baptist denominations stands as a monument to the faithfulness of God, in fulfilling his promises to those who love, follow, and trust him."

" If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you." John 15:20

"We feel no blush of shame mantling our cheeks as we trace the history of our fathers. True we were not great according to the world’s estimate of greatness. We wer the outcasts of the outcast. We were the persecuted of the persecuted. We were counted unworthy to dwell with those who were called Christian. But we are among whose characters brighten under the searching light of history; and we have left to our descendants a name which they may be proud to bear, and an example which they should be zealous to emulate.

"The blood of martyrs is the seed of Christians."

The Columbine killer pointed his gun at Cassie Bernall and asked her the life-or-death question: "Do you believe in Jesus?" She paused. The gun was still there. "Yes, I believe in Jesus," she said. That was the last thing this 17-year-old born-again Christian would ever say. The gunman asked her "Why?" She had no time to answer before she was shot to death. Bernall entered the Columbine High School library to study during lunch. She left a martyr. Though lots of fellow Columbine students already were strong, vocal born-again Christians, Bernall's confession in the face of death has inspired them to keep the faith no matter how bad it gets. "She did something that one of the thieves did when Jesus was on the cross. She admitted she believed in Jesus Christ before she died,"


God Bless

David

[ December 28, 2002, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Daveth ]

 

Ummmm....where is it ever stated that there is a new Eve in Scripture. I have seen the part about the second Adam, but must be missing the page about the new Eve.

I must have missed that....I see some reference to the second Adam, but on my computer it is not showing the references for the new Eve. I think you mean eisegesis, not exegesis.

Didn't know I have to know what all the early church fathers said to figure out what God wants to say. I think that I will just stick to His Word. Also, be careful of your confidence in men.

Ummmm....looking at the context around this verse, it seems to be referring to Jerusalem, not Mary. Hmmm....I think the bomb was a dud. Remember, exegesis.....or I guess your conclusion is right if you really meant eisegesis.

Well, that looks right at first.....but let's see.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Rom. 3:23

So far so good.....I guess Jesus was a sinner. But wait!

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man." Phil. 2:6-7

"I and my Father are one." John 10:30

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

Wow, I guess Jesus doesn't come short of the glory of God, since He is God and has the glory of God! Good try though.

No, I am telling you God used Mary as a vessel to accomplish His will. She was still only a human and she was married to Joseph. And she did have sex with Joseph at some point.

"Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And KNEW HER NOT TILL SHE HAD BROUGHT FORTH HER FIRSTBORN SON: and he called his name JESUS." Matt. 1:24-25, Emphasis mine, except for JESUS.

Any support for these claims?

Boy, sure had me fooled, especially when you listed Mary as mommy before God as daddy earlier.

Actually, you haven't given much Scripture to ponder......mainly some far fetched ideas that don't take long to dismiss from Scripture.

Actually I have done a lot of that since Creation is one of my favorite subjects. Imagine the shock at knowing that I am called a son of the King! There is a lot of could have beens, but there is what happened that we have to deal with.

Neal

[ December 28, 2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

Are any Catholics going to respond to my previous post? Or was what CC said just his own far fetched ideas? I have questions about claims made and yet no one answers. Hmmmm....

 

DHK,

Let's start off with the basics.

Do you or do you not believe that "the church," as spoken of in Scriptures here, refers to each and every individual Christian, and that all of these Christians together make up the Body of Christ, which IS the church?

God bless,

Grant

 

I don't know a typical SB. I've been married 23 years and I beat no one -- even those that deserve it. I understand the historic Baptist faith and all the historic confessions and creeds.

I usually do not post on this forum because is it filled with malice. But I had to post now, even though I no longer consider myself SBC.

May God bless you</font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for proving my point. Saying that anyone is "typical" when in reference to an overall group is stereotyping, prejudice, and is breaking the commandment of God to not bear false witness against our neighbors.

God bless,

Grant