U=Unconditional Election

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by annie, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. annie

    annie
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    I am new to the board.
    I only learned of the Reformed Theology this year.
    I do believe that is what I am.
    Anxious to hear others thoughts on the U of TULIP.

    Unconditional Election means to me God has chosen who will be saved.
     
  2. dianetavegia

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    Unconditional Election means to me God has chosen who will be saved. Then HE also chose whom to condemn to hell.

    I'm not a Calvinist nor Armenian. I believe to be one or the other, a person should be all or nothing. I cannot agree with all of either group. This 2 point, 4 point stuff is silly.
     
  3. Bro. James

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    Unconditional Election:

    Without condition(no ifs, ands or buts), God saved my soul before the foundation of the world. It was based purely upon His good pleasure and strictly by His Grace. It had nothing to do with any merit on my part, past, present or future(God knows all).

    God even gave me the faith to believe the above. I did not have any faith of myself.
    God gives everything that is good. All the praise goes to Him. I have not room to glory whatsoever.

    That is what "unconditional" is about.

    "Well, that's not fair--God has elected some to heaven and some to hell". Without the shed blood of Jesus, we are all going to hell and rightly so--we are guilty and separated from God. I am glad that God is not fair.

    It is God's good pleasure to save some--see the Flood of Noah--God destroyed all of mankind--except for eight souls. He could have destroyed them too--but Noah found Grace. Not that he deserved it, it was the Grace of God.

    The "L" in tulip has also been introduced. However "U,L,I,P cannot be understood without the "T", which is: TOTAL depravity of mankind.

    The Arminian cannot abide this one because it takes away his "choice" to choose or not choose to believe what the Word of God says regarding eternal salvation of the soul.

    The basic point here is that man, is his totally depraved condition is not capable of making the right choice. He can only choose the bad.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  4. Monergist

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    Since there's no disputing that the Bible teaches election, and

    Since the only alternative to Unconditional Election is Conditional Election, and

    Since Conditional Election by defintion would require some merit on the part of the one being elected, and

    Since there are none who have any merit on their own apart from Christ, therefore

    I will hold to the truth represented by the doctrine of Unconditional Election and pay no heed to man-made objections to God's Word.
     
  5. annie

    annie
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  6. corinne

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    Hi Diane

    If God chose who will be saved then he did not chose whom to condemn they have no value to him. This to me contradicts the fact that God loves every one of his creatures and sent his Son to save them all. Up to each man and woman to choose Christ as the gate to heaven, or not.

    Corinne
     
  7. corinne

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    There cannot be an unconditional election, as the bible clearly says that there is one condition to fill in order to be saved: to believe in Jesus Christ and acknowledge it publicly.

    Corinne
     
  8. corinne

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    Speak for yourself. Thanks to the guidance of the Holy Spirit I know I can discern good from evil. You are assuming that everybody (but the elect = but you?) is depraved. I am not depraved and neither are millions of Christians who do not share the Calvinist point of view.

    Corinne
    http://www.christianresistance.com
     
  9. corinne

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    Since there's no disputing that the Bible teaches election, and

    Since the only alternative to Unconditional Election is Conditional Election, and

    Since Conditional Election by defintion would require some merit on the part of the one being elected, and

    Since there are none who have any merit on their own apart from Christ, therefore

    I will hold to the truth represented by the doctrine of Unconditional Election and pay no heed to man-made objections to God's Word.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Where do you see that conditional election requires merit? It only requires from a person to believe in Jesus Christ, that is all. No works attached to that requisite.

    Corinne
     
  10. corinne

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    </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but we don't know who they are. Only God knows the identity of the predestined. Neither you nor me can presume to be one of them, we can only have a good feeling that we are. It will be up to God to reconcile his will with ours.

    Corinne
     
  11. Bro. James

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    "No merit have I of my own..."

    "I believed you, God, you owe me salvation"--amounts to a good work on our part. There is nothing good anyone can do to merit salvation.

    "But I have faith in my faith", you say. "Your faith" cannot save you. Only God-given faith saves.

    All of God's creation was separated from God through the sin of Adam. "There are none righteous, not one." Now there are either children of God and children of the Devil. That is what Jesus told the Pharisees:"Ye are of your father--the devil."

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  12. Bro. James

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    Depraved--completely--everyone--by nature--that includes me--and you--and the pope.

    "Behold, the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world."

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  13. JohnB

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    The concept of unconditional election often leads some to conclude that election, and therefore, salvation, is completely random or arbitrary.

    Yet Calvinists will be quick to point out that it is not. They would claim that there is a reason, but it is knowable only to God.

    Therefore, despite 66 books of inspired scripture, God's revelation of Himself to man, we cannot really know why any of us are or are not saved.

    One Calvinist writer put it this way:
    "What about you? You may think you are not one of the elect. Maybe you are not, but maybe you are."

    Sounds fairly agnostic to me.
     
  14. mprivett

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    Corinne,

    You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the doctrine of total depravity, and it's clear from this and other posts that you have no assurance of your salvation. Thus, you are placing your hope in your own self, just hoping you can keep from sinning to the point where your salvation is lost. If you just believe enough... Whether you choose to admit it or not, logically you believe in a works salvation. Faith is a work that you have to conjure up enough up to maintain your salvation. Christ is not the author, nor is He the perfector of your faith if you are consistent.
     
  15. mprivett

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    Bro. James,

    I agree with almost everything you said in your first post on this thread, up to the point where you said you were glad God is not fair.

    I think I understand where you are coming from. I would just add that, because of the righteouness of God being revealed in the person of Jesus Christ, who is the propitiation for all who will ever believe, God is just, and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus (Romans 3).

    God's right to acquit guilty sinners is summed up in Christ.
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    Let's see now, God knew all about you and that you would come to believe in Him, Perhaps, years, centuries, millenniums, and even eon's of earth time before he chose to Create Adam? You are many many generations removed from Adam, Is that right? Is that what you believe? .

    God made man to have a brain, and senses that input data to the brain, but he leaves it up to you what to believe! What you believe is from external sources the fact that you believe is internal. That's the way that God made man....ALL men, including you. The fact that you believe in God is due to the Holy Spirit's enlightening of the Word of God, so that you have the Word in which to place your faith. You see it is true that Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Do you understand that? FAITH comes from hearing the word of God. Yes, God did give us his word, and granted, not all who hear the word become believers. Yes, that does leave room for your thoughts of unconditional election. However such election does not square with the rest of God's creation.

    You brought up the shed blood of Jesus, do you impose the restriction that "Jesus' atonement for the sins of the world" was only for the "elect"? If you do then you have misinterpreted scripture which declares that Jesus' atonement was for SIN, and not for sinners. The elect are sinners, just as all humans are sinners. Therefore the atonement frees all mankind from the penalty of sin, and not just the elect. So if all mankind is free from the penalty of sin, what is to stop any one out of all mankind from coming to FAITH in God, and thereby receive God's free Gift of Salvation? Nuttin' Honey!

    NO! Noah found "favor" in the eyes of God, because Noah had faith in God, and walked humbly before him. Therefore, God saved Noah and Noah's family with him. God's saving of Noah was due to the favor that HE found with Noah's FAITH, it was not Grace that saved Noah It was God who did it.

    A myth of false doctrine!

    First, I am neither Calvinist NOR Arminian, and for that matter I am not a "hyphenated Christian" period. That said, "Total Depravity" takes away "THE ELECT's" ability to respond to God! If you are totally depraved, then you have no ability to believe God's word which brings one to faith, as God's word commands us to do! Afterall, Total really means 100% of all there is, not partial for some and total for others.

    What a totally false doctrine! Your God obviously makes junk! Not my God!
     
  17. Wes Outwest

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    Make sure that you understand the doctrine you hold to. You will be enlightened in the end. Faith and FAITH ALONE is what God uses as the measure for salvation.
     
  18. johnp.

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    Yea! But it is great to keep talking about it ain't it Monergist? Everytime I go through this I get deeper into Him. New every morning it seems to me. As fresh as the first time I heard it.

    Hello Corinne.

    That is not in question Corinne. Each person must be willing to accept the death of Christ as the sacrifice for their sin. It is where the ability to do that comes from.
    The message is that it is by faith that we are saved. This is contrasted by works in the bible. If faith is a work of man then it is not faith because faith precludes works. It is by works not faith?

    You see it was not credited to Abraham as a work...
    Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
    ...but it is a work!
    John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
    John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    You have a contradiction. Your Romans says it is not by works and Jesus says it is. Explain this please.
    The way I see it is that God, being the only Sovereign, wills in my will to do His will. Therefore I am willing. That is the work of God that causes me to cease boasting.

    johnp.
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    Then you see it wrong. The work of God, That is, God's work, is that we believe. Well guess what? God gave us His Holy Word. God gives us His Holy Spirit, and God Gave us his ONLY begotten son. Those are all WORKS of God in his grace. None of them are works of man, therefore man has no works that are worthy of God. That is why our salvation is "not of works" if it was, then only those who do the biggest and best works could be saved, and there would be some really loud boasting in heaven. Because of the work of God the Son, that is, the atonement of sin, sin is no longer a factor in our salvation either. You see with Works not a factor, and sin not a factor, there is only factor that man contributes to his own salvation and that is, as scriptures say, FAITH! For by grace ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH, and not of yourselves, it, salvation, is the gift of God.
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    Unconditional Election strikes down the infinity of God as to His love and the other Attribute of His impeccability as to His Divine justice. He favors no particular sinners as noted in St. John 1:7 where God says that John the Baptist ' . . . came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light (coming from Jesus) that all men through Christ might believe.'

    The concept of ' . . . all men', of course, includes women and children.

    Unconditional Election was for John Calvin--the hand-me-down theology worn by the greatest of Roman Catholic theologians, St. Augustine. The paradox of it all is that the Catholic church has taken on a more moderate view of election, while some Protestants and other Calvinists still maintain the old guard, as did this 'Neo-Platonic philosopher, Augustine. In Dr. Paul Enns' book, "The Moody Handbook of Theology' Moody Press, p. 424 Augustine said, 'God extends His grace--which Augustine termed "Irresistible Grace." Thus this form of ancient theology was spoon fed to all Roman Catholics in Augustine's era and now by other religious teachers in Protestantism, who have named it "Reformation Theology."

    Dr. Berrian

    No wonder why friar Martin Luther was so elated, spiritually speaking, when he finally realized that salvation was by faith [Romans 5:1] without the least scintilla of human effort or 'good works' coming from the mortal and lost agent.
     

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