U - Unconditional Election

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Skandelon, Sep 28, 2013.

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  1. Skandelon

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    Calvinists teach that before the world began, God chose a particular number of individuals to effectually save. They teach that this choice is 'unconditional,' meaning it is not based upon anything except God's own secret, self-glorifying purposes.

    Yet, some passages seem to suggest that God did have a condition for His choice. i.e. God has chosen the weak... God chooses to give grace to the humble. The Father is seeking [true worshipers] to worship Him. Many are called but few are chosen (those chosen in that parable were properly clothed), etc.

    What say you?
     
  2. Rippon

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    Amen and Amen! To the praise of His glory. Yes, it was pleasing in His sight to do what he did to save whom He chose. Remember not to try to search out the unsearchable. The secret things are not yet revealed. Be content to rest on His revelation alone. To go beyond that into the land of speculation is not wise.
     
  3. Skandelon

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    Well, the verses I referred to are not speculative. They teach that God chooses to show grace to the humble...and that He chose the weak to shame the wise...and that he chose those properly clothed to enter the wedding banquet. Those choices are clearly conditioned upon something of man, are they not?

    "Humble yourself and you will be exalted."
     
  4. Van

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    The biblical doctrine is God chooses individuals for salvation during their lifetimes by setting them apart spiritually in Christ based on God crediting their faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 4:4-5, 24.

    Besides 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 (choosing the weak) we have God choosing those rich in faith, those who love God (James 2:5); choosing those who have lived without mercy (1 Peter 2:9-10).
     
  5. quantumfaith

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    In my mind, this "attribute" of reformed theology causes the most division and acrimony within and between believers. It is clear, the biblical narrative contains a "doctrine" of election, but I disagree adamantly with the "reformers" take on it. In my mind, I see the election to responsibility, not a preordained process of selection. I will also admit, it is one of the many mysteries of our faith.

    The following are some of my favorite "statements" regarding election:

    It has to be said that much of the debate over the meaning of election, predestination, reprobation and associated concepts has been carried on at a level of systematic abstraction and binary logic that seems oblivious to the way the Old Testament speaks of God’s choice of Israel. Between election in the Hebrew Scriptures of Jesus and election in the foundations of theological systems there sometimes seems to be a great gulf fixed. The Mission of God, pg. 262.

    “The election of Israel is instrumental, not an end in itself. Israel was chosen as the means by which salvation could be extended throughout the earth. Israel as a nation was chosen to be the vehicle in which God’s mission would be extended to the whole world.” Not every person in Israel was saved; like Abraham before them, they had to place their faith in God to be saved.

    “The election of Israel is fundamentally missional, not just soteriological.” According to Wright, “If we allow the doctrine of election to become merely a secret calculus that determines who gets saved and who does not, we have lost touch with its original biblical intention.
     
  6. Pastor_Bob

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    I've gone on record here many years ago to say that the belief that God could save all, but He chooses not to do so, is in my opinion a "damnable heresy" (II Peter 2:1). To believe such would go completely against the very nature of God.

    John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


    These passages, any many more, would clearly refute the damnable heresies of unconditional election and limited atonement.
     
    #6 Pastor_Bob, Sep 28, 2013
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  7. Winman

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    Yes, Jesus himself showed God is not willing that any should die.

    Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

    God is not content to "pass over" folks as Calvinists define "pass over".

    It is amazing, in the scriptures when God said he would "pass over" someone, it meant that God would save that person, but Calvinism has redefined "pass over" to mean that God has left that person to be damned.

    Exo 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

    I've said it a hundred times, I'll say it again, Calvinism teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scripture is really saying.
     
  8. canadyjd

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    Comments removed. Have a nice day, you all.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #8 canadyjd, Sep 28, 2013
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  9. Rippon

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    Well,Pastor Bob and Dr. Bob certainly can't be mistaken for one another! The former needs to "moderate" his extreme statements.
     
  10. Pastor_Bob

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    I can't help but believe that my statements are only "extreme" because they happen to disagree with you. Stating and discussing one's beliefs is the very purpose for this forum, is it not? I happen to believe one's position on this very issue can mean the difference in heaven and hell; I'd say that warrants "extreme" statements.
     
  11. Revmitchell

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    Not that you need encouragement from me but just stick to it. Some of those who accuse you of extreme statements often do the same and in an arrogant way. Much of the defense of Calvinism cannot be done in any way other than extreme.
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    Pastor_Bob

    What do you mean "could save all"?
    Could you expand on this?
    Are you saying That God has not planned salvation?
    What do you think biblical election is?
    ,

    Does God as creator have the right...to save or not save?

    Do you dictate to God what He can or cannot do?

    Who do you believe teaches that God could save...but does not?

    Calvinists believe and teach that God has planned to save each and every person that he can justly, and righteously save...no more, no less.

    So if that is your argument, maybe you better learn what the teaching is before you go off on it.


    Yes...these passages have the word ALL in them....Do you believe ALL men will be saved?

    You...pulling these verses out of context refutes nothing.It just shows you do not have a grasp on the verses, or how to read a verse in context..
    if you want to battle against a strawman you create...have at it.If you want to speak as if you know what the issues are with the biblical teaching of election or the atonement try again.
     
    #12 Iconoclast, Sep 29, 2013
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  13. Pastor_Bob

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    The verses I offered above are self-explanatory in that God has given each man, woman, boy, and girl an opportunity to be saved.

    Not at all. God planned salvation before He laid the foundations of this world. He also made His only Son the supreme sacrifice for all mankind before the foundations of the world were laid.

    My opinion is that biblical election is God's choice of man as prior to man's choice of God. The Lord surely is come to "seek and to save that which was lost," but His calling is not coercive. Man is free to accept or reject God's drawing.

    "Election here is understood as God's purpose and initiative in man's salvation. It is not that God chooses some for salvation and some for damnation, thus determining the destiny of each. Were that true, even the so-called salvation would be damnation, for to coerce a person as though he were a thing would be his destruction." New Testament Theology by Frank Stagg - 1962 Broadman Press - pg. 84

    Absolutely. And I'm so thankful that He has given me, and every member of my family, and every friend that I know, and every one I meet on the street the opportunity to trust in the blessed unlimited atonement that Christ offered for us on Calvary.

    II Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

    "Election is that eternal act of God by which, in His sovereign pleasure and account of no foreseen merit in them, He chooses (He could save all if He wanted to - my words, not the author's) certain, out of a number of sinful men, to be the recipients of the special grace of His Spirit and so to be made voluntary partakers of Christ's salvation." Christian Theology - Systematic and Biblical by Emery H. Bankroft - 1976 Zondervan Publishing House - pg. 237

    "God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind (this number could have been all mankind - my words, not the author's), as individuals, not for or because of any merit or work of theirs, nor of any value to Him of them; but of His own good pleasure." J.P Boyce, Abstract of Systematic Theology, pg. 37 - a secondary source gleaned from A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine by Thomas Paul Simmons - Second Printing 1979 Bible Baptist Publications - pg. 194

    These are just a couple of example of books that pulled off my shelf this afternoon. I'm quite sure I could offer dozens more.

    Always good advice. Thank you for the reminder. We all do tend to go off rather easily, do we not?

    No, that would make me a proponent of Universalism. I do not believe that all men will be saved, but I certainly believe the Bible is clear that all men can be saved.
    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, which I will respect much more after you've offered scriptural support upon which you base that opinion.

    And, if you choose to battle my "strawman" with a Red Herring, you are certainly welcome to do so; it doesn't bother me in the least. My goal has never been to win an argument.
     
  14. Rippon

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    Even to multitudes who have never heard the Gospel their entire lives and know not a whit about Christ?

    Tell me where in John six that you get the impression that folks can reject God's drawing.


    Do you agree, or disagree with Boyce here?
     
  15. Pastor_Bob

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    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (KJV)
    John 1:9 That [Jesus] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (KJV)

    I do not base my soteriology on any single chapter in the Word of God. Although, I do believe that man's free will is certainly present even in John chapter six.

    I disagree with his doctrine. Does he make true statements? Indeed. Is his doctrine flawed? In my opinion, absolutely. To say that God knew who would be saved is a far cry from saying that He determined how many He would save.
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    Pastor_Bob

    Thank you for your response...let's see what we have;
    The verses are far from self explanatory as you state.While God has given all men the light of creation, and the light of conscience...rom1,2.....so that they are without excuse.....nothing in the verses you offered OR anywhere in the scripture will you find any verse that says what you say- that God has given each man, woman, boy, and girl an opportunity to be saved.


    for example you offer this:
    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    so let's examine your idea.....as Jesus was on the cross and said it was finished.......how did any person in the rain forrest, or North America....how did they have as you say opportunity to be saved???How was Titus 2:11
    fulfilled as you claim...with the truth of Romans 10 coming into view?
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    Agreed

    Again...the passages the speak of salvation being planned and the sheep being elected....do not speak of all mankind ....but those whom God saves''
    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


    This is only spoken of in reference to the elect......the same in Romans 8,9and eph1.....
    You trying to stretch it is not supported anywhere in scripture.:thumbs:
    Your opinion,as well as mine is not the issue....what scripture says is the issue. You are making statements and claims that you cannot support.


    It is hard to understand what you are saying based on how this is worded.You need to expand on this a bit.


    If you open up all Of Ezk34, God himself speaks of he coming to seek and save...HIS SHEEP....not goats.....He comes to seek and save all the father has given to HIM....he saves all of them.....if there was any doubt, Jesus explains clearly who he came to save...in LK 19

    9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

    10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

    Yes,,, the seed of Abraham...not the seed of Adam.

    Jesus taught otherwise all through the gospel of JN,6,8,10,12,17
    Jesus taught men are bound in the realm of sin and death.They need to be saved by Him.

    Where does scripture indicate anywhere....that it is God's initiative and not all of God as Jonah told us?


    God is free to save anyone he desires to....or to not save according to His own purpose and grace.This quote is unbiblical carnal speculation and philosophy. God sets His love on the objects of the Covenant of Redemption, that is spoken of as the children whom God has given Him.

    Certainly the gospel is to be preached to all men everywhere.Christ Jesus died to save sinners.....as all men are sinners, we can preach the truth of cross to all....every sinner that comes to Jesus will be saved.

    I had to make sure you were not speaking of universalism as it started sounding that way.

    "Election is that eternal act of God by which, in His sovereign pleasure and account of no foreseen merit in them, He chooses

    B](He could save all if He wanted to - my words, not the author's)

    If the author did not offer that....why do you think you need to add to it and negate what the author actually said....



    [/B] certain, out of a number of sinful men, to be the recipients of the special grace of His Spirit and so to be made voluntary partakers of Christ's salvation." Christian Theology - Systematic and Biblical by Emery H. Bankroft - 1976 Zondervan Publishing House - pg. 237

    "God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind



    (this number could have been all mankind - my words, not the author's),
    Again...Boyce ...and while we are at it JL.DaGG were 5 pointers....Boyce does not want your wrong idea inserted here.:(



    as individuals, not for or because of any merit or work of theirs, nor of any value to Him of them; but of His own good pleasure." J.P Boyce, Abstract of Systematic Theology, pg. 37 - a secondary source gleaned from A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine by Thomas Paul Simmons - Second Printing 1979 Bible Baptist Publications - pg. 194

    Friend...i have these books on my shelf also....Boyce teaches what you falsely claim as damnable heresies.....Most every respected theologian has believed what you resist so far....You are free to pull books of your shelf...but let them speak what they say.

    I do not think you can make a biblical case for your statements.If you can I will read it.....but it is up to you to make a biblical case...
    You have not done so here.I was disappointed to see your statements earlier on and I think perhaps you have not interacted with biblical Calvinists before.

    I do not mind someone being passionate about the scriptures....it is better than many of the dead fish just flowing downstream....
    I do not have thin skin...so you can feel free to come at me as strong as you want to....If I am posting what you think is in error...then by all means offer BIBLICAL correction.....not emotion, not opinion, or speculation...saying He could have did this or that.

    Agreed....universalism is heresy....and at the same time biblical calvinists believe...everyone who calls upon the Lord will be saved. We believe the truth of unconditional election....but God does not tell us who are the elect, instead he commands that we bring the gospel to All men everywhere.
    I believe every person I speak to out here all across the country could be a lost sheep...i cannot see their heart...that is God's business.:wavey:

    Ok...i have offered a bit, and will do more later on...let's see where we can go with this.

    I do not think it is about win/lose/ ..strawman/red herring.....it is about the truth of God and our striving to be faithful to it:thumbs:
    I have no desire to harm you personally. I will defend and contend for the faith ONCE delivered to the saints.
     
  17. Rippon

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    Don't waffle. I asked you to tell me where in John chapter six which is the most biblically elaborate unfolding of drawing --where do you get the impression that anyone can reject the drawing of God? "For people can't come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me,and at the last day I will raise them from the dead." verse 44(NLT96)

    I agree. To believe the above is certainly a watered-down alteration of the biblical doctrine of election. The Lord doesn't just know. He decrees,establishes,appoints,ordains,determines. He wouldn't be the LORD if He is just a bystander.
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    Pastor_Bob

    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
     
  19. psalms109:31

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    Deuteronomy 31:12
    Assemble the people—men, women and children, and the foreigners residing in your towns—so they can listen and learn to fear the Lord your God and follow carefully all the words of this law.

    Proverbs 1

    Purpose and Theme

    1 The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:

    2 for gaining wisdom and instruction;
    for understanding words of insight;
    3 for receiving instruction in prudent behavior,
    doing what is right and just and fair;
    4 for giving prudence to those who are simple,[The Hebrew word rendered simple in Proverbs denotes a person who is gullible, without moral direction and inclined to evil.]
    knowledge and discretion to the young—
    5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
    and let the discerning get guidance—
    6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
    the sayings and riddles of the wise.[Or understanding a proverb, namely, a parable, / and the sayings of the wise, their riddles]
    7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
    but fools[Septuagint; Hebrew / at noisy street corners] despise wisdom and instruction.

    Job 34
    34 Then Elihu said:

    2 “Hear my words, you wise men;
    listen to me, you men of learning.
    3 For the ear tests words
    as the tongue tastes food.
    4 Let us discern for ourselves what is right;
    let us learn together what is good.

    John 6:45
    It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.


    It is simple those who refuse to listen and learn because they are wise in their own eyes have not been ordained to eternal life. How can you come if you don't listen and learn? Those who never listen and learn will face condemnation there is no reason to not to believe the truth because of our own emotions.


    1 Thessalonians 2:
    13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]
     
    #19 psalms109:31, Sep 29, 2013
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  20. Iconoclast

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    :thumbsup::thumbs:I think many have not really spoken with a biblical grace believer and have not real understanding of the actual position.It is obvious by a lack of biblical discussion on the topic.
    :wavey:
     
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