Unbelief of TULIP

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Feb 18, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God?
     
  2. Reformed

    Reformed
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    57
    Why limit it to TULIP? Why is God not correcting every erroneous doctrine in the church today? You have to ask that question if you are going to include TULIP.
     
  3. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    The question is from a Calvinistic pov. The understanding I get from Calvinist is that most resisted Calvinism and then one day the Holy Spirit caused them to believe. The Calvinist is dead set that God made them believe TULIP, not just by thorough study and dialogue. The testimony you hear most is "a light switch went off".

    So if you resisted until God finally zapped you into believing TULIP, then why isn't God zapping all His children into believing TULIP? Afterall, doesn't God want us united?
     
  4. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Also, who gets to decide which ones are erroneous?
     
  5. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,609
    Likes Received:
    157
    No as they are correct. It is the believers in TULIP that are in error and are sincere in their beliefs, but are not understanding God's love for his creation properly. God understands however, so you have nothing to worry about. God understands we are like children and none of us have everything correct in our beliefs.
     
  6. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,615
    Likes Received:
    6
    Steaver, you're either unconditionally predestined to believe TULIP or you aren't.
     
  7. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Yeah, that's the take I get from most of these debates. But then Calvinist take it into the level of no belief in TULIP = No Sheep. But to be fair, that is where the doctrines of Calvinism leads people. Once you step into it, the final conclusions are grim, even to viewing God as a God of hate for most people. Awful.
     
  8. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,615
    Likes Received:
    6
    Another conclusion is that for the first 1500 years of the church there were few if any SHEEP at all (unless there were a lot of proto-Calvinists lurking around in those early years that just didn't happen to leave behind any historical writings documenting their devotion to TULIP).

    Thankfully, John Calvin came along in the fullness of time to reveal the truth--not that it matters, one is either unconditionally chosen to be a Calvinist or not. Perhaps Calvin came along to write his INSTITUTES as the ordained secondary means to damn all those reprobate non-Calvinists. :thumbs:
     
  9. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,609
    Likes Received:
    157
    Are you saying that almost all believers before Calvin are lost? How about the disciples?
     
  10. Reformed

    Reformed
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    57
    My first response still applies. I could use your same logic about continualists. If tongues is for today, and I do not have the gift of tongues, why does not God cause me to see the light and cause me to embrace tongues? Why are there so many denominations? Answer: because of sin. Why does not God cause all Christians to believe the same doctrine so as to have unity? The fact is we do not have the answer to that question. I cannot point to a verse in the Bible that says why God allows His children to hold to different understandings on doctrine. All I can tell you is that each person has to be convinced in their own mind. Do I believe Monergism is right? Yes. You believe Synergism is right. I can turn your question around and ask why God did no keep me as a Synergist.
     
    #10 Reformed, Feb 18, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2015
  11. Reformed

    Reformed
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    57
    All we have is the Bible. It is our sole authority for all matters of faith and practice. We have to be convinced in our own minds as to what the Bible teaches on a particular doctrine. Now, God has also given us pastors and elders who labor at understanding and teaching the Word. As we receive their teaching, and study to show ourselves approved, we come to our own conclusions. We stand or fall on those conclusions as they turn into beliefs.
     
    #11 Reformed, Feb 18, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2015
  12. Reformed

    Reformed
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    57
    You are not telling the truth. Ask me why I do not believe that way, why I do not believe "no belief in TULIP = NO Sheep". I keep company with many Monergists who do not believe that way. Why do not they believe that way? You are painting a caricature of Monergists which is a lazy and ignorant thing to do. It also displays a mind who cannot grasp the substance of the subject he wants to debate.
     
  13. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Here's the situation;

    (1) We ALL agree the Holy Spirit teaches His sheep.

    (2) We ALL have access to the Scripture

    (3) We ALL have access to tons of commentary supporting both positions, and both positions put forth scripture which each believes supports their position.

    Here is the point of difference; The Calvinist carries and attitude of "I am just further advanced than you are because I hear the Holy Spirit better than you do".

    Come now brother, you read the same post I read in here from Calvinist brothers and sisters in Christ. "When God opened my eyes" - "God illuminated TULIP to me" - "you love not the Truth" - "Divine Enablement" - "you don't believe TULIP because you have an un-teachable spirit" - etc, etc....
     
  14. Reformed

    Reformed
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    57
    Why do I not believe in Synergism? And full disclosure. I am going to hang on your every word.
     
  15. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    *****jeopardy music*****
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,915
    Likes Received:
    94
    Or he is rebellious, or he is a provocateur, or he just has a bug up his arse. With Stever its a call to action....to get one over on the Calvinist....an agenda. I don't get it either. Went out of my way to tell everyone I dont believe in the "no belief in TULIP = NO Sheep" dipLOL.

    Maybe Icono just pushes his buttons & this is how he retaliates. Who knows & who cares.
     
  17. Reformed

    Reformed
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    57
    I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. It may be in vain, but we will see.
     
  18. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trust me, it's in vain...
     
  19. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Sorry, I am not understanding what you want me to do with your question. Please elaborate...
     
  20. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    This is a debate board, correct? Do you really believe Calvinist are here to learn if their belief in TULIP is correct? Or are they here with an agenda to preach TULIP without consideration that they could be wrong? Well let me ask you brother, do you believe you could be wrong about TULIP? How about you Willis, think you could be wrong about TULIP? If not, why are you here debating, do you have an agenda?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...