Unconditional Election And the Invincible Purpose of God

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Monergist, Dec 29, 2002.

  1. Monergist

    Monergist
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    http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/02/121502.html

     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    God never intended Romans nine to be a watershed or illustration of His autocratic
    choosing men and women for Hell and Heaven. This is a grevious error of St. Augustine
    and his mentor father, John Calvin.

    God speaking through the Apostle Paul wanted His people to know that He chose Jacob to be the lineage by which Jesus was born. The 'Son of Promise' came by way of the geneology of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Esau was elected by God for a much, lesser postion as one of God's people with no tribe named after his name. Because of Esau's carnal ways God relegated him to an inferior position and land mass, namely Edom. [Malachi 1:1-14].

    God takes careful note to list both Jacob and Esau as circumcised, sons of the covenant and
    therefore, children of God. [Hebrews 11:20] We do know of Cain's eternal demise as noted in Hebrews 11:4 and that all of the rest of the men and women in Hebrews eleven are counted as saints, though many of them had human flaws/sins.

    The note worthy Rev. Dr. Merrill C. Tenney, former Dean of the graduate School of Theology at Wheaton College and Ph.D. from Harvard University, states in his Zondervan Pictoral Bible Dictionary, that 'Jacob and Esau were children of faith, as was their father [Hebrews 11:20]. (pg. 398 right column at bottom) I most, firmly agree with Dr. Tenney.

    Only those caught in the net of Calvinism could suggest the alternate view. I sound a call to think before 'parroting' this evil, error fostered by the sainted, Catholic theologian.

    Respectfully

    Ray Berrian, Th.D.
     
  3. Charlie T

    Charlie T
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    Ray,

    Interesting comments.

    I am curious how Augustine had a mentor who was not yet born? :confused:

    But, it seems to me that you are having difficulty with Romans 9 and so you react vehemently.

    Please tell me the meaning of the following:
    Thanks,
    Charlie
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    Charlie T,

    John Calvin was a mentor of Augustine in the sense that being a Roman Catholic before his conversion to Christ, he had read and studies his writings. Do you think that Calvin quickly after his conversion was so mature as to write his view of theology without prompting? Calvin systematize the alleged truths that Augustine thought that he had received from God. His whole system of this authoritarian, autocratic, severe, impersonal God was due to his immersion in the writings of Aristotle and Socrates. The god of these two men was not the God of the Old and New Testaments. Their god emasculated the Personhood of Christ and made him a god without feelings and love toward human beings.

    I researched this above truth as a small part of my doctoral dissertation but not to the extent that Dave Hunt did in his book, "What Love Is This?" In his book he shows how, 1,200 years later, Calvin merely systematized the findings of his counterpart, the noted, Roman Catholic theologian, St. Augustine. He documents and quotes a myriad of Calvinist writers who also agree with his view. This was a surprise to me that they would even admit their highly organized theology came from the minds and hearts of leading Roman Catholic teachers.

    You will find in the Word of God that the Bible says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Exodus 8:15, 19,32; 9:7,34,35; I Samuel 6:6. The Word also tells us that God also hardened Pharaoh's heart. Exodus 7:13; 9:12; 10:1,20,27; 11:10 and 14:8.

    Pharaoh was caught in the web of earthly political power and the deception of his own religion. He had heard about the Lord of the Hebrews and was an eye-witness to the plagues and yet he refused to bow before the Lord. He had, more than other people in his nation, the opportunity to yield to Him but hardened his own heart before the Lord God.

    The reason God elevated Pharaoh for the whole world to see is found in Romans 9:17 and it was not to highlight an alleged 'Unconditional Election' of all human beings to either hell or heaven, or even the obstreperous sovereign, Pharaoh. Hear the words of Christ through the Apostle Paul. 'Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, (why?) that I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.'

    Every time we read about the plagues we understand who was more powerful. It was not Pharaoh but the Living God, namely, our Lord.

    Note in Romans 9:22 there is not a signpost of what God does in saving some and damning the rest of human beings, but God indicates that He could have done this. The term 'What if God . . . ' clearly suggest a hypothetical situation and not a watershed for saving and damning human beings.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    Calvin was born 1000 years after Augustine. Calvin could not have been a mentor to Augustine. But even at that you miss the point. The question is not "Does this person teach what someone else taught?" The question is, "Does this person teach what Scripture teaches?" The answer is that Calvin did teach what Scripture taught regarding soteriology. Your problem is not with the words of Calvin but rather with the words of Scripture.

    You keep talking about your doctoral dissertation. Are you willing yet to tell us where your got your doctoral degree? I think it would lend a great deal of credibility to your writings if you can tell us who you were trained by.
     
  6. Charlie T

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    Ray,

    I think I get what you mean with the mentoring. You mean that in some sense, Calvin considered Augustine 'mentor' of some sort.

    I am sure that he was familiar with his teachings and found them consistent. Obviously a true mentor is more involved in a person's life, but I suppose you mean that metaphorically.

    I have Hunt's book, but have not been able to get up the stomach to read it yet. [​IMG]
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    I am a person who always wants to know the truth even if it contradicts my own denominational preference. I also believe that most people don't want to know the truth and prefer to 'rest on their oars' and 'swallow' the quasi-truth that they have been given or think is the truth.

    I readily understand why some dislike James Hunt and his book, "What Love Is This." He is a 'straight shooter' and does not care what other people think. This used to be a good attribute found in a man of God. Society has changed.

    He has traced Calvinism back to the Dark Ages and its early philosophy/theology written in the hand of Augustine, that Roman Catholic quasi- theologian.

    Brethren, that's the truth and that's the way it is.
     
  8. tnelson

    tnelson
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    Charlie T
    I do suggest that you take something for your stomach before reading Hunts book.

    by His Grace
    mike
     
  9. Ray Berrian

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    Dave Hunt uses what leaders of Calvinism admit about Augustine and John Calvin. I was amazed at the documentation that he uses so no one can say that these are merely his distorted views. In chapter one: in 22 pages he uses 16 direct quotes; in chapter 2: 6 1/2 pages he uses 16 direct quotes; in chapter 3: 10 3/4 pages he uses 45 direct quotes. In chapter 4: 12 pages Hunt uses 69 direct quotes.

    The Calvinist leaders that stand out in my mind and used in direct quotes are people like: R.C. Sproul, John Piper, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, R. Tudor Jones, Edwin H. Palmer, B.B. Warfield, David Steele and Curtis Thomas.

    The latter two men made this statement at the biginning of chapter four. 'The basic doctrines of the Calvinistic position had been vigorously defended by Augustine against Pelagius during the fifth century.' Their book was titled, "The Five Points of Calvinism {Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co. 1963} p. 19

    The book by Dave Hunt won't make you sick, but it will make you open your eyes to the truth as documented not by Arminian writers but leading Calvinists.
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    But remember that Calvinist friends of Hunt warned him not to publish his book because he was so far off base. Remember that a host of people have refuted all or part of Hunt's book exposing his shoddy documentation and research, his poor argumentation, and his presentation. I was talking to a friend last night who was reading it who was amazed at the fact that Hunt was not even addressing things that were real issues in the debate. It is not a reliable book and people who know history and theology know that.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    The Calvinist response to criticism is typical; denial without personal investigation. My research lead to the same conclusion as Mr. Hunt. This is fine for lazy minds.

    Many people have placed their personal reputations on the line. His exceptional endorsements are duly noted. For example: Elmer L. Towns Dean of Religion, Liberty University and Bob Wilkin, Ph.D. Founder and Executive Director Grace Evangelical Society.
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    If you read Mr. Hunt's book you will see that he uses your own Calvinist leaders as his documentation of what he is stating. Documentation doesn't get better than this.
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    Ray, you are living in denial. Hunt's book has been critiqued and refuted by people from all different walks. You have simply bought the wrong line. You are the one who is refusing to personally investigate these issues. You misunderstand total depravity and use John 1:9 to prove when John 1:9 does not even deal with total depravity. You should be able to see through this if you ahve a doctorate. The more you write, the less credible you become. You need to avail yourself of the myriad of credible resources out there and abandon your own knowledge as the judge of truth. God's word is truth and we cannot contradict it, even when it means we abandon our own positions.
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    My brother in Christ, Larry,

    I see no problem with using John 1:9 to counter-balance the Calvinistic heavy handed and lopsided use of the view of Total Depravity.

    Have you ever read the entire book, "What Love Is This?" by Dave Hunt? I do admit that he is brutally, honest in his evaluation of Father John Calvin.

    Only those who are confirmed Calvinists didn't want Mr. Hunt to research the beginnings of Calvinism because they can't deal with the true origin of their beloved doctrines.

    Sincerely and respectfully,

    Ray Berrian

    [ January 05, 2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    My last Biblical reference in the January 5th --11:38 a.m. post is I John 3:15 that great apostle of Christian love.
     
  16. romanbear

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    Hi Pastor Larry; [​IMG]
    Quote from you;
    _________________________________________________________________
    Ray, you are living in denial. Hunt's book has been critiqued and refuted by people from all different walks. You have simply bought the wrong line.
    __________________________________________________________________

    So has the Bible but that doesn't mean all those who have refuted it are right does it?.
    I get a monthly news letter from Dave Hunt Called The Berean call. I've read most of his books along with T A Mc Mahon's I haven't as yet found anything to be false.The neat thing about his news letter is that a lot of people write in and tell him off because of his beliefs but these are mostly those in favor of ecumenism.Pastor Larry are you in favor of ecumenism?.
    Romanbear [​IMG]
    Peace
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    I don't expect that you would. However, you "problems" are not the issue. You are using John 1:9 to address something that John was not using it to address and therefore you are wrong. It doesn't matter what your personal beliefs are; the text of Scripture is what matters.

    No. I have read the reviews, talked to many people who have read it who know the subject much better than I do.

    Lastly, as to your recountinf of an event in Calvin's life, you were away for a time and perhaps forgot the standard of this forum. The man Calvin is not at issue. That belongs in the history forum. This is a forum for doctrine. What Calvin may have been like in his personal life is of no concern to this forum. We are concerned with the eternal doctrines which are unfortunately called by his name.

    Scripture says what it does Ray. You don't have to like it; you are expected by God to conform your beliefs to it.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    Those books have contradicted the Bible, as has Dave Hunt's book on Calvinism.

    Then you haven't read this book. As for his other books, I don't know. I have read his newsletter a couple of times and found some problems in it with respect to this issue. The problem is that Hunt is not writing out of his knowledge of soteriology on this subject but rather out of his personal ideas about what he think soteriology should be about.

    Nope, I stand against it in all its forms.
     
  19. tnelson

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    Dave Hunt made this statement after quoting Rom. 8:29, That God could save you without you being conformed to the image of Christ.
    The texts reads: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethern.

    The Word of God says Dave Hunt as made a false statement. ( ref. www.aomin.org)

    by His Grace
    mike
     
  20. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    I believe that the Bible teaches us to love all of God's people if they hold to the basic truths of the Cross. There are so many liberals who do not hold to basic Christian doctrine. If people claim to be 'born again' we have to welcome them as brethren. I John 3:14 says, 'We know that we have passed from death into life because we love the brethren . . . '
     

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