Under Grace or Under Law?...Round 3

OKAY I think I just thought of something that might be really significant, at least to me.

THE PROBLEM as I see it is that Christians just cannot conceive of the idea of a God who would make it to where a person just so happened to be so unfortunate as to die in the "act of sin".

and because of that, we think that well God would for sure not condemn that person...

BUT you know what? Jesus talked about this:

Luke 12:
35: Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36: And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37: Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38: And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39: And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40: Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41: Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42: And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43: Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44: Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45: But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46: The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.


AND just previous to that He talked about the man who had build many barns and that "THIS NIGHT THY SOUL WOULD BE REQUIRED OF THEE"

Luke 12:
15: And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
16: And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
17: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
18: And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19: And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
20: But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?



well you know what? THAT MAN was caught in sin at time of death.

It isnt as if WE determine when we die anyway, that is in GODS HANDS, right?


THAT NIGHT it was GOD who determined it was time for this man to die.

and so to think that somehow God would just be so cruel as to have it where some poor guy just happened to die at the time of his sin... and well, isnt he just so unfortunate?

well you know what? God knows when someone is going to die. and He just plain said BE READY AND KEEP YOUR LIGHT BURNING AND WATCH AND PRAY BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW WHEN YOUR TIME IS UP!!


Claudia

 

you misunderstand the point I was trying to make. Im not like one of these Christians who thinks we cant obey the law as well as God desires us to be able to obey it... what Im saying is they needed grace back then and relied on the blood of Jesus just as much as we did.

when I say we cant obey it, Im talking about if you go to the very broadest sense of the 10 commandments, we cannot equal "THE PATTERN"... the Pattern being Jesus who perfectly perfectly obeyed the law.

I believe we can keep the law just as good as God expect us to...

Lk:1:6: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

 

I challenge anyone to find where Scripture ever says that regarding any one of the 'Big Ten' individuals I cited. Not one of these individuals is ever said to have repented in any way, in Scriture, let alone to "repent of their sins", which words I have asked for time and time again for anyone to show me where this phrase ever occurs. Not one has for this phrase is not to be found in the KJV, RV, or ASV. (I cannot speak for any other translation, here.)
I'll type this in real slow, and use big letters too, so it doesn't get beyond anyone.

I fully agree that repentence is required for a person to be saved. In fact, I have argued that consistently. I have just as consistently argued that Biblical repentance is tied in as the 'flip side of faith', and is not primarily concerned with sin, in Scriptures. I have been castigated and ignored on this, but not refuted, in any way.

I agree as that they knew that "they needed a Physician", and they got that and more, namely the new birth and eternal life, as well, by faith, and faith alone. Not one of these ever "merited" this in any way, any more than I did. I cannot speak for anyone else, here, but I have never, in any way, argued for any "Heavenly Prostitutional Services" in any form, so wonder why some supposed or suggested sexual sins keep getting brought up so often?

Since I took all my examples from the pages of Scripture, I wonder how that is going to extremes? I tend to think that "going to extremes" is more akin to attempting to apply 'repent of their sins' to these individuals, when Scripture never says any such thing and then hear the deafening silence when I mention that God was said to repent or not repent over 30 times in Scripture, and not hear one word in response to this when I ask about it. That sounds to me like reading the Bible through one's theology, rather than the other way around. Since most that have opposed me in what I claim Scripture teaches on repentence, just exactly what sins is God repenting from, in your understnding? I'm still waiting for the first response to this one.

Have I ever said this, in any way? I don't think so.

I agree that I have said that "how they act" is not what determines this, and just gave ten examples, I believe.

Two things here. Yes, it is folk's opinion that seems to take precedence overall. And how does what Scripture teaches somehow become 'extreme'? I guess one will just have to "cringe on", before Scripture.

Ed

 

and by the way I think that is one big point where these people on the other side of this are really running circles around you. Because its TRUE.... if we only realized just how BROAD and all-encompassing the Ten Commandments really are, and if we could just realize just how perfect Jesus is... we would NEVER EVER EVER be claiming we are sinless. EVER!!!


Isa:6:5: Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.


you take one good look at the holiness of God and you will NEVER be found claiming you are sinless.



you can be as sinless as Adam and Eve were before the fall but thats about as high as you will ever achieve.

 

Lk:1:6: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

HP: Isn't that an amazing verse! Just to think that it is INDEED possible to walk blameless before God......and they were not alone in that category either.

 

Ed,


Im thinking I probably brought up the "Heavenly Prostitutional Services" because I had just gotten done talking about the fact that Jesus said the Prostitutes would go into heaven before the Pharisees?

Go back and read what I said.

 

Heavenly Pilgrim,

True, Job was said to have been perfect before God as well.

but ya know, he had some doubts and things... at least from what I read.

 

you cant blame me for whatever you have said in the past and I didnt reply on...

I havent read everything you have ever said.

 

HP: Indeed, and the HEART AND SOUL of ‘perfect obedience’ just as required by God.

God understands our human fraility, and expects no more out of us than to love Him with all 'our' heart, strength and might within the context of our understanding and abilities.

 

thats exactly how I feel about that too...

 

Well, at least here is a place where we can agree, but I will go a bit further. If you "keep the two", you will keep each and every precept of the 600 or so found in the Mosaic law. BTW, if you don't keep each and every one of the 600, you did not keep these two. (Can anyone say go to Jerusalem twice a year to sacrifice in the non-existent temple??)
I don't keep these two, per se, (and don't particularly worry about this since Jesus kept them for me, and as one in Him, I did as well) since I am not and never was "under the law", in the first place.

Ed

 

Pleaseeeeeeeeeeee dont start on that, in the new testament God asks us to keep the Royal law, the ten commandments.

PERIOD.

Claudia

 

I like what DidW said about the word desire.

And I also agree that one doing abominable acts just prior to death was just revealing what manner of tree he is.

Someone asked in another post how does DidW reconcile 1 John 5:13?

He does't have to. The Word of God says that which is born of God, He that knows God, will not break the Commandments. So many are so blinded by their want to get into heaven that they fail to see what God says must be in and what must not be in the one who will get in.

You do not believe that a tree will reveal its fruit in its season. You do not believe that God's Word is true.

That one in 1 John 5:13 did not write the previous chapters because he just wanted to fill up space. They were there for exhorting, they were there for admonishing. They were there for guidance.

The author wrote in the fourth chapter, 'Greater is he that is within you, than he that is in the world.' Yet, this verse must also be ripped out of your Bibles in order for your theology to work. If that which is defiling shall enter that city, if one need not continue in the faith grounded and settled, and can commit an abominable act and be guaranteed entrance in heaven, heaven will no longer be the holy city John saw and wrote about.

 

HP: Now I am not just picking on Ed here, but it does deem a bit strange to men that men who try and enact perfect obedience to civil law, such as been suggested by DHK, would then throw out the law in comments such as this. If I am not under God’s law, and God’s law tells me to be obedient to civil law, cannot I rightfully assume I am free to do anything anytime I well please, without regard to God or man?

I would like to see DHK answer this one.

Can I suppose, as Ed states, that since 'I am not under law but grace' that I can break the law, both civil and moral with impunity? Why not? What is there to stop me?

 

I wasn't 'blaming' anyone for anything, least of all you, but just making a statement of fact.

Ed

 

Never said I didn't. Although I do hide some of mine behind a beard and sunglasses so most don't notice as much. :tongue3: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

HP: What? Are you advocating sinless perfection? Don't you listen to the comments on this board? No one can keep the commandments. It is utter arrogance to even consider such a thing. All men are liars. God just has some favorites that He does not enforce the mandates of the law upon. We are forgiven although we can do everything others do and that are condemned for it, even adultery, murder and the such like................NOT!(meaning this is NOT what I really believe)

 

I did read each and every post. And I agree about the Prostitutes, and Rahab, the mother of Boaz, and great grand-mother of David would here be the poster-child, no doubt.

Ed

 

while I agree with alot that you say, I dont ALWAYS agree with this point. SOMETIMES when someone falls into sin they are just exhibiting what was in their hearts all along.

But I think you are forgetting the fact that Jesus said

Mt:26:41: Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Obviously we can see from that verse that the Disciples COULD very easily fall into temptation if they werent "watching and praying"... just as Peter did.

THAT didnt mean all the Disciples were some sort of "bad trees just waiting to have their evil revealed in time of temptation". RIGHT?

Claudia

 

Well, the subject is "Under Grace or Under Law?...Round 3", I do believe. And secondly I believe James actually says "fulfill the royal law", to be specific, but I agree. Why get upset and quibble about the words of Scripture? Undoubtedly if James had only known as much then as we now do, he would have worded it bette...

Ed