Under Grace or Under Law?

The soul is what is born again which will live forever. If it was the whole man that was born again then we would not have to die naturally for we are "born again" of an incorruptle seed, one which can't sin and can't die. How else could Paul say he had a desire to depart, for to be with Christ is far better or the theif on the right hand of the Lord and Jesus said, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise. When Jesus said "touch me not for I have not yet accended to the Father", He was talking about His body for when He died, He said "Father, I commend my Spirit into thy hands".

1 Peter, chapter 1
22: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24: For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

HP: I may not understand you completely. Once a person is born again, does he have a free will, and can that free will choose selfishness if in fact it fails to avail itself to the strength God promises? Can it fall away from it’s first estate to the point it needs to repent and do its first works over?

It has been my observation over the years that new believers often fall and must seek renewed repentance. I have seen some start out real good with good testimonies that have fallen away and now live as they did in their former life. I do not count them out for they are still alive and have an opportunity to once again get right with God if in fact the Spirit of God has not been withdrawn, and in speaking to them I cannot say I have seen such a case. I have seen backsliders get right with God and stay on the path as well.

It would appear to me both from Scripture and experience that a Christian puified by faith can fall away and lose their first estate. There is certainly no reason they have to or should, but the clear possibility exists.

When the Scriptures speak in words such as ‘cannot sin,’ I find that NOT to depict an impossibility but rather that their will is fixed and will not. IF they do, it is simply proof that their will changed and the voluntarily chose to return to the life of living for the flesh. Just as I say I ‘cannot go back and do the things I did before, I am not saying that it is an ‘impossibility’ but rather that I am completely unwilling to do so with the help and strength of the Holy Spirit.

 

Because the soul is what is "born again" is why a Christian does sin in the flesh but that which is born of an incorruptle seed cannot sin and therefore is in answer to the scripture "that which is born of God cannot sin". The body must wait on its change which will be in the resurrection for as the scripture says, "the whole creation groaneth together until now waiting on the redemption of the body.
These are the words of God "that which is born again is of an incorruptle seed". If it were the body then the body would not have to die.

I don't count them out either but believe they were mistaken in their status of being saved as I have heard so many on here testify to.

If you will look at it as Paul did about the inner man and the outward man (flesh), which dwelleth no good thing then you can understand why Jesus said that which is born of God, cannot sin. The flesh sins but does not go too far for we have a keeper and that which is within you is stronger than that which is in the world.
The Scripture plainly teaches that the flesh shall be delivered also. Also, means something has already been delivered from sin and we know of a surety it is not the body for the body has to die.

I didn't have time to get the scriptures for I am on my way to the gymn, but will do so when I get back.

I mean HP, we just can't cast aside as others seem to do the fact that Paul said there was a "inner man" and there is an "outward man". No one even attempts to answer that as if they are scared of it or something. One thing for sure, that which is born of an incorruptle seed cannot sin, cannot die. Thats why I can say, I am going to Heaven at my natural death.

That is why Paul sought to have the thorn removed from his side for he couldn't stop the flesh from sin, he wanted to be perfect as the inner man is after being born again. In other words, I believe my soul has already been cleansed up and ready for Heaven when I am set free from this corruptle body. Death is a gateway to Heaven for the children of God.

With the carnal mind (flesh), he can but not with what is born of God.

I ask you to think a minute about in Rev. where it says, "he that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches". Is that the carnal or fleshly ear or is that the ear of the heart and I don't mean this heart pumping blood. If you have a natural heart and you have a spiritual heart don't that tell you about the inner man and the outer man?

It is not a man is a man is a man, as some have said. We can't just cast Pauls words and Jesus words aside, we have to try to understand them. To be with Christ, this day thou shalt be, inner man, outward man, he that hath an ear (which can't mean the fleshly ear for everyone who heard the word would be saved. If we understand there is a part of man that is born again and the flesh waiting on redemption also, then the scriptures all make sense.


2 Peter, chapter 1

5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

1 John 3:9 describes the justified sinner's position imputed with Christ's righteousness. We still sin of course, but God doesn't regard our account, but Christ's that was freely given to us. 1 John 1:8 doesn't give place for moralism or sinless perfection. If we say we don't sin, we don't have the truth. So these verses are reconciled by admitting that we are sinners and continue to sin but in Christ, God is gracious to see Christ's righteousness, not ours.

 

I believe this is what Jesus meant when He said "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." (John 13:10)
We as believers are "bathed", washed by the Holy Spirit, and made right with God, but yet we still sin. We still need our feet washed daily, or daily forgiveness of sin. But we are still "clean" in that we are still saved and set apart for God.

 

According to the scriptures we still sin in the flesh. Paul tells us that.

According to the scriptures that which is born of God cannot sin.

If I am right and it is the inner man that is born of God and cannot sin then these scriptures make sense.

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (Inner man or Soul, that which is "born again")

vs.

1Jo 1:8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (flesh with the carnal mind)

No one else has a good answer to reconciling these two scriptures unless they stretch, twist and turn the scriptures. What I have just said is as plain as day.

If I am right the what Paul said makes sense.

Rom 7:18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

It is not just me that believes this. We have thousands of members and several Associations and many churches for Mich to Fla and they all believe the exact same thing I just told you and have believed it at least since the 1600's

Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (I ask you, how can you sin inwardly where the kingdom is?)

 

"I don't count them out either but believe they were mistaken in their status of being saved as I have heard so many on here testify to."

It ain't enough to believe, you gots to really believe.

It ain't enough to believe, you gots to really, really believe.

It ain't enough to believe, you gots to really,really, really believe. . . .

 

Devil believed, maybe that will help. Why do you think in the end they will say we have prophesied in thy name and done many wonderful works in thy name but He will say "depart for I never knew you".

Yes, I really, really, really believe....... don't know about you, that is up to you and the Lord, not me.

Time is the best experience you will ever get and I have seen many say I believe, get their name on the church book and go back to making the devil the best servant he ever had. So much for "believe".

 

Brother Bob, I'd like to offer some thoughts here.

There is a possible alternative explanation to the 1 John verse -- it may be referring to Christ. Verse 8 says the reason the Son of God was born was to destroy the devil's work. Is this the one Person who was born of God in verse 9? It seems to refer to a number of people, but all the pronouns after that are the third person singular. There is a possibility, anyway, that this is what it is referring to...

Another possibility is that the person, like you or me, who is born of the Holy Spirit, or born again, does not continue to live in sin, although we sin. The way I explained the difference to my kids when they were growing up was that it was like the average person lived in a muddy 'valley of sin' when mud was constant and people were always slipping and falling in it and that was considered normal. But when you decided to follow Jesus, He would lead you up the mountain out of the valley. He would wash you clean and you no longer lived in that valley. However you could still slip and fall sometimes and get yourself dirty and need a bit of cleaning up here or there, but that was way different from living in the mud.

About the references to Romans 7, I do not think that is talking about the saved person. If you check the verses 7 on, you will find Paul putting himself in the situation of spiritual death, or alienation from God, when the law came into his life and he consciously and deliberately sinned. He repeats the fact that he is 'now' dead many times before those famous verses from 14 on. It is not until he gets to verse 24 that he asks who will rescue him from this body of death, and then he gives praise to Jesus. Verse 25 ends with the unsaved person declaring he is mentally a slave to law and bodily a slave to sin. This is not the position of the born again Christian, who is no longer a slave to the law or to sin, but is a slave of righteousness, not judged by the law, but judged by grace.

Thus, those verses starting with fourteen appear to be talking about the condition of the average unsaved man who knows the law, wants to obey it, and finds he cannot.

We are not in that situation, for those who are led by the Holy Spirit CAN obey the law by His power and grace. When we don't we are not judged by that law, but we are disciplined by the Holy Spirit who is raising us up to be the image of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

I'm not arguing with you Bro. Bob, but I believe this scripture is speaking about the Kingdom of God in the sense that it was "among" the Jews, not in the heart.

 

I think it means the saved Helen, as the Lord told Nicodemus You must be born again!

1Jo 5:1¶Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 John, chapter 3
9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Helen;
The next verse tells us plain who it is talking about and it is the "children of God".

 

You need to clear some of you PM's, Bob. Your box is full.

 

There is no need to consider it arguing is there?

Luk 17:24For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

He was talking about all the way unto the end of time and I believe He was talking to us also, He is within us and He is the Kingdom.
You do believe that Christ dwells in us.

"Repent ye, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand".

 

Yes, Christ dwells within me and you. I don't think that you chose the right scripture for that illustration. I probably should have just kept that post to myself.

 

Psalms, psalm 23
1: The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2: He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3: He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5: Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6: Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.


If He restored his soul it must of been lost and dead so He made it alive again in Christ Jesus.

 

Rom 14:17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Are these within you Amy?

 

I never in no way said we could not sin but Jesus said that which is born of God cannot sin.

I say its the inward man which has been cleansed up. Jesus said it so it is true, so what is it that cannot sin, say you? We know for sure its not the flesh. Paul told us over and over and also the flesh is corruptable.

Romans 7:
24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

How much plainer could it be????