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Featured Understanding redemption

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Van, Feb 21, 2014.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The rebith IS the process of being now adopted, as me become co heirs with jesus means that God has now adopted me into his Family!
     
    #41 Yeshua1, Feb 28, 2014
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If you were born into a family you are not adopted. This is so simple even a cave man could understand it.

    Here is how it works, for those actually interested in truth:

    When God puts us spiritually in Christ, we become spiritual children of God. Anyone who is in Christ is a new creation. Then, after God puts us spiritually in Christ, God seals us in Christ with the Holy Spirit. Thus anyone with the Holy Spirit is indeed a child of God, not through adoption, but through being born from God.
     
    #42 Van, Mar 1, 2014
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If you adopted a dead child, would the child be made alive? Nope.

    If you are keeping track, now we can add "born anew" to be redefined as meaning adoption in the Calvinist nullification of scripture play book. There is no end to the nonsense posted in the name of Calvinism.
     
    #43 Van, Mar 1, 2014
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    First, why is this subject being brought up on a second thread when it is already being discussed on another thread. We don't need multiple threads on one subject.

    Second, the new birth and adoption are two entirely different things. I have already explained that to you and you never responded. Use the word "adoption" from the context of Scripture and look at it the way Scripture uses it. It is used in three different ways. It is used in the past (an event already taken place), the present (the privileges of one who has been adopted), the future (to our resurrected and glorified bodies). Romans 8:23 is not the only reference to "adoption.

    First, in our past, before we were saved, what kind of relationship did we have? We were slaves to the law. No man can keep the law, and it was the law that condemned us. We were held in bondage by the law.

    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    --Every unsaved person is under that curse. The law condemns.

    Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    --The law can never justify; it only makes one a slave. Break the law and you are a sinner.
    1John 3:4--"Sin is the transgression of the law."
    Before you were saved you were a slave to the law.

    When you were born again, the Lord took you, adopted you, and made you his slave. You are in his household, a servant of the Most High.
    That is why Paul said:
    Romans 1:1 Paul, bondman of Jesus Christ, [a] called apostle, separated to God's glad tidings, (Darby)
    Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
    --The word for "servant" here is "doulos" meaning "bondslave." He was the one in the OT who had his ear pierced signifying he would be a slave to his master for life.
    We have accepted the position of "servant" or slave to our master, Jesus Christ, for life. That is adoption. It is not the same as the new birth.

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    --As indicated here it comes with a relationship. Having been adopted we are able to come to our heavenly Father in the most endearing way calling Him "Abba."
     
    #44 DHK, Mar 1, 2014
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi DHK, I think you are right, it appears I posted post 31 to the wrong thread, my bad.

    The only valid reason for discussing adoption as part of the topic of redemption is Romans 8:23, but, as indicated in the OP, that future bodily redemption is outside the main topic, our past spiritual redemption.

    1) I have never said adoption and being born anew are the same thing, I have always said they are two different things, so your claim is both mistaken and confused.

    2) You are mistaken as to why born anew believers think of themselves as bond-servants (slaves) of Christ. We were bought with His blood, He ransomed us from our bondage to sin. So we owe Christ a debt we can never repay. Thus we are His bond-servants. Adoption is no where in view.

    3) Slaves do not call the owner "Abba Father." But children call their Father, the one who caused them to be born anew, Abba Father.

    4) Here is the core of your mistaken view:
    No verse says when we were born anew, God also adopted us. None, zip, nada. What scripture actually teaches is when God causes us to be born anew, He predestined us to our future adoption, the redemption of our bodies, Romans 8:23, Ephesians 1:5. Notice, in Ephesians 1:3, the blessings being described are bestowed after we have been spiritually placed in Christ, thus after we have been born anew.

    You are spot on with regard to us being made slaves, we are enslaved to God, Romans 6:22, by virtue of being born anew, i.e. enslaved to righteousness. We have been made righteous, and nothing we can do will break that bond. But search Romans 6, high and low and you will not find the little phrase "adopted you." How were we "enslaved?" We were bought with a price, 1 Corinthians 7:23. What was that price? In Him we have redemption through His blood. Christ bought us, and therefore we are God's own possession. Ephesians 1:7 ​
     
    #45 Van, Mar 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2014
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    John called us Little children, and that we were born again as children of God, so was he wrong about us being now adopted as children of god due to the new birth?
     
    #46 Yeshua1, Mar 3, 2014
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    We are saved through Jesus Christ and Him alone.
    The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin.
    But we are saved through the blood of Jesus Christ which was once offered for all.

    We are not saved through sanctification, for example. But I guarantee you that without being sanctified no man shall see God. If one is not sanctified, set apart from sin, made holy and undefiled, he will not see God.

    We are not saved through adoption. But if you remain not adopted, you will never see God. Adoption is necessary to enter into God's household. It is the only way to become a legitimate son of God, an heir of God, and joint heir of Christ.

    Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    --Past and present tense:
    In the past, when we were saved, we were also adopted.
    Therefore, now, in the present, we call our heavenly Father: "Abba."
    This is due to having received the spirit of "adoption."
    It is a placement: taken out of bondage and put into the adoptive sonship of the household of God, and made an heir of God.
     
    #47 DHK, Mar 3, 2014
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    12 [w]But as many as received him, to them he gave [x]prerogative to be the sons of God, even to them that believe in his Name,

    13 Which are born not of blood, nor of the [y]will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    john 1:12-13 Geneva 1599

    Looks like we MUST be born again, and that makes us adopted as now sons of God!
     
    #48 Yeshua1, Mar 3, 2014
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Scripture please! :)
     
    #49 Van, Mar 4, 2014
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks, both DHK and Yeshua1 are simply asserting what scripture does not say, that when God caused us to be born anew, He also adopted us. There is absolutely no support in uncorrupted scripture for that view. People who are born into a family becomes members of the household by birth, not adoption. In Paul's time, natural born members of a family at maturity were granted the full rights and privileges of being an adult member of that family in a legal ceremony translated as adoption. Paul used the term metaphorically to refer to when we have our slaves clothing (our corrupted flesh) removed and we are clothed in our glorified body.
     
    #50 Van, Mar 4, 2014
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  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Can you look at me or yourself in the mirror and know you are looking at one of the "sons of God." Are you looking forward to the time when the sons of God will be revealed, when we are raised in glorified bodies? If you look at the context of Romans 8:23, you find a seemingly parallel verse in Romans 8:19 where we eagerly wait for the revealing as sons of God. Adoption does not make us sons, adoption reveals us as sons!
     
    #51 Van, Mar 4, 2014
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ONLY those who have been adopted by God can be called His children, so how can we be saved and yet still not be adopted as One of his own?

    the Holy Spirit Himself is Agent causing that to happen to us, and that adoption is whathe didi in order to be the pledge to us that we will one day have it completed when God reclaims our physical selves by glorifing the body!
     
    #52 Yeshua1, Mar 4, 2014
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    That is an opinion, a statement, and an appeal to the public. It does not answer the Scriptural post that I gave you. You avoid and have continued to avoid a proper explanation of Romans 8:15, along with the explanation that I have given you. Why not respond to my post instead of posting with emotion.
     
    #53 DHK, Mar 4, 2014
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This should be interesting, as we have both a cal/non call agreeing against his understanding of adoption!
     
    #54 Yeshua1, Mar 4, 2014
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here are the two quotes from DHK which reference Romans 8:15:

    DHK says I have not addressed this view of Romans 8:15. After we are placed in Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation. Then, having been born anew, we are sealed in Christ with the Spirit of adoption as a pledge to our future adoption, the redemption of our bodies at Christ's second coming. We have the Holy Spirit, therefore we have been born anew into God's family, and therefore we cry to God, Abba Father. Not due to adoption, but due to being born anew.

    DHK has provided no scripture, including Romans 8:15 which says when we were born anew, we were also adopted. No one needs to be adopted into a family they have been born into. Such an argument makes no sense.
     
    #55 Van, Mar 5, 2014
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  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Folks, care to guess how many people agree that if a person is born into a family, they do not need to be adopted to become a member of that family.

    Answer, nearly everyone. On the other side sit DHK and Yeshua1.
     
    #56 Van, Mar 5, 2014
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    For your consideration:
    1. This topic is going in two different threads. I am closing this one.
    2. You have not addressed Rom.8:15 properly because you have not understood the meaning of it. It is not equated to regeneration as you falsely accuse me of attaching that meaning to it.
    3. Before closing this thread I am going to quote once again the article from Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, which you never addressed because I don't think you can. It has plenty of Scripture for you to answer, and adequately sums up this doctrine in a way that you cannot refute it.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2092225&postcount=19
     
    #57 DHK, Mar 5, 2014
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