Understanding Revelation

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by antiaging, Mar 10, 2008.

  1. antiaging

    antiaging
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    This is a summary of my understanding of Revelation.
    Summary of Revelation:
    First 3 chapters are letters to the churches in Asia telling them what is wrong with them and what they need to correct.
    Chapter 4 starts a whole new discourse about what will happen in the future.
    Jesus lived without sin and offered Himself a sacrifice for mankind so He prevailed and beat Satan, and He has the right to open the book with the 7 seals. These are the things that will happen on the last 7 years till the end of the age when Jesus returns.
    1st seal:
    The future evil leader, the antichrist goes forth to conquer the world militarily.
    2nd seal:
    The leading general of the coquering army starts the war.
    3rd seal:
    Food is scarce as a result of the war, there is starvation.
    4th seal:
    Shows that the war is over a 4th of the earth; many will die and go to hell in the war and famine caused by the war.
    5th seal:
    The antichrist and his servants will kill many saints. The saints will pray for God to take revenge.
    6th seal:
    Jesus returns, at the end of the 7 years, to take over the world by force. The evil doers are afraid and will hide themselves.
    Chapter 7 a completely new vision. 144,000 Jews of Israel will become Christians before the punishments of God are poured out on the Earth.
    Chapter 8: God starts to punish the people of the Earth for their sins as the 7 trumpets blow.
    Seems like a meteorite shower causing fires. Seems like a big meteorite, asteroid, or a comet hits the sea and poisons the water killing many people.
    Sun partially blocked possibly by large dust cloud caused by the comet or meteorite or asteroid--whatever it will be.
    An army of demons is released, like locusts, that will hurt the unsaved men with great pain.-- a sting like a scorpion
    Another army of either demons or men making war will cause many men to be killed by fire and smoke.
    Men still don't stop sinning; so more punishments will come.

    Rev. chapter 10
    Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet. That is when the saints will be resurected and the living saints will rise with them to meet Jesus in the air at His return--This is spoken of by Paul; look up last trump
    chap. 11
    Jerusalem is conquered by the antichrist and his followers and they will walk in Jerusalem for 42 months.
    That happens 3.5 years before the end when Jesus comes back.
    Two prophets of God testify against the antichrist during the 3.5 years and they speak out punishments on the people for their sins and the punishments happen to men. They will be killed shortly before the end and lie in the street 3 days. Then they will come back to life and be resurected. Then the end comes before Jesus returns.
    12
    Israel brings forth the Messiah Jesus. Satan was waiting to kill Him. Israel will flee into the wilderness when the antichrist takes over Jerusalem 3.5 years from the end. Satan and his devils will no longer be allowed to enter into heaven to accuse the saints falsely like they did to Job in the old testament. Satan and his devils are denied access to heaven and must stay on the earth. Satan makes war against the Jews that are saved Christians.
    13
    The beast from the sea; the antichrist the last evil ruler
    His kingdom will be like medo persia, large, like greece cunning, he will speak with authority like the babylonian king, Satan will give the antichrist his power.
    Another man will cause the world to worship the antichrist and cause a mark or a number or a name to be needed by law in order to buy and sell.
    14 Brief vision of the 144,000 Jews that became christians standing on mount Sion.
    Another vision:
    Warnings given to the Earth that if any worship the antichrist he will be tormented forever in fire.
    rev. 14:15,16 Jesus comes and raptures up the saints to meet Him in the air. rev. 14:17-20 Armageddon ---The armies of the Earth are slain in the valley of Megiddo
    15 AND 16
    The last punishments of God, the vials
    This happens mostly during the last 3.5 years.
    Sores on the men that worship the antichrist, the sea becomes like blood- either a large amount of iron oxide in the water are a reference to all on the sea dying, rivers and fountains of water become blood. --Possibly a large amount of iron oxide (rust) in the water from a large amount of iron in the sea from the asteroid that hit. (Iron oxide in the hemoglobin is what gives blood the red color)-- or blood being used figuratevely to indicate death. Men scorched with fire and heat and in pain with darkness.
    Men still will not repent of their evil.
    Euphrates river is dried up so that the armies from the East can come to the valley of Megiddo for armageddon to happen. Devils go out to bring the armies there. Great earthquake and great hail causing destruction. This is shortly before Jesus returns.
    A new vision:
    It is about a false religion, the woman or harlot. It is the babylonian mystery religion, baal worship. It rules over 7 kingdoms which oppress Israel. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo persia, Greece, are the 5 that are fallen. Rome is the one that is. Revived Rome made of 10 nations from the european union will be the 7th. The form of Baal worship that rules in Rome now, will rule over the 7th kingdom. See the Two Bablylons by Hislop on Google. Rome is the city that ruled over the kings of the Earth at the time of the writing. He refers to Rome as Babylon, a spiritual comparison. The 10 nations will destroy the religion and the city of Rome, and the antichrist will set himself to be worshipped in the city of Jerusalem for the last 3.5 years.
    18
    The destruction of Rome in one hour, possibly by a nuclear bomb.
    Another vision:
    God is praised for destroying the Roman form of Baal worship which killed many of the saints.
    Marriage supper of the lamb, possibly happening after the saints are raptured up at Jesus' return, maybe before armageddon maybe after it.
    Jesus returns with an army of angels and the saints to take over the world by force at amageddon.
    19
    Satan is bound a thousand years. There will be a thousand years of peace on the Earth with Jesus and His saints ruling the world.
    It seems like some people that never heard of Jesus, and they helped saints in their life times will be allowed to enter the thousand year reign. See the parable of the sheep separated from the goats in the gospels.
    Satan will be let loose to deceive whoever can be deceived as a final test of men near the end of the thousand years. The deceived men will gather to attack the saints and will be destroyed by fire.
    The devil is cast into the lake of fire to suffer forever. I suppose all of the demons go there.
    The unsaved dead are resurrected to be judged out of the books about their deeds. Whoever is not found in the book of life goes into the lake of fire to be tormented forever. Men are judged according to the words of the New Testament.
    21
    There is a new sky and a new Earth, no more sea.
    no more sorrow, nor tears nor pain nor death for the saints.
    A new Jerusalem 1500 miles square and high. Streets of gold, pearly gates bright with walls having pricious stones and full of mansions. That is where the saved saint will live, happy forever.
    The testimony is ended.
     
  2. Sgt. Fury

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    The biggest problem I see with this is the repeated references to events signaling the 2nd Coming of Christ. Mt 24:36-39 seem to indicate that there will be no signs that the 2nd coming is near, except that faithful preachers of righteousness will be warning people to get prepared for it, just like in the days of Noah.
     
  3. EdSutton

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    Understanding Revelation?

    Me?

    Sure!!

    What do you want to know??

    :rolleyes:

    Ed
     
    #3 EdSutton, Mar 10, 2008
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  4. BobRyan

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    1. Seven Churches - represent 7 periods of time for the christian church over the past 2000 years. They are also seven literal churches with literal problems in John's day - that were literally addressed by the literal message in Rev 2 and 3.

    2. There is no 7 year period mentioned anwhere in the book of Revelation.

    3. There is a 1000 year period mentioned in Re 20 - it is real, literal and it comes right after the real literal 2nd coming event described literally in Rev 19 and using "some symbols" in it's description of course.

    a. All the saints are raised in the "First resurrection" of Rev 20 which takes place in conjunction with the 2nd coming event described in Rev 19.
    b. The resurrection of the saints at the 2nd coming marks the start of the 1000 years according to Rev 20.
    c. The saints are raptured at their resurrection according to 1Thess 4 -- so their 1000 years is spent in heaven.
    d. Satan is bound for the 1000 years - no one to tempt. All the living wicked were killed in Rev 19 - 2nd coming event.


    4. Seven Seals - are again a summation of 7 divisions in time over the 2000 year period from John's day to today.

    5. Seven Trumpets - looks kinda like the 7 vials - 7 last plagues. Not sure what this is.

    6. Seven vials - 7 last plagues poured out at the end of time.

    Lots of other stuff in Revelation as well such as the Rev 11 and 12 reference to the 1260 years of the Dark Ages, the War in heaven, the first coming of Christ etc.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, Mar 10, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 10, 2008
  5. TCGreek

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    And How do decide that the 7 historical churches are 7 periods of the Christian church over the past 2000yrs?

    What are the hints that this is the case?
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    // (Revelation Chapter) 18
    The destruction of Rome in one hour, possibly by a nuclear bomb.//

    Revelation Chapter 18 speaks of Babylon.
    I think somehow God can keep Rome and Babylon straight.
    I think somehow God can keep Jerusalem and Babylon straight.
    I think somehow God can keep New York City (AKA: Babylon on the Hudson) and Babylon straight
    I think somehow God can keep Moscow and Babylon straight.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    From historical studies I've done, the 7 historical churches are 7 periods of the Christian church is assumed. Then you progress forward with your logic assigning each of the historical churches to a period. The 7 periods vary by the historical century of the writing. In the 1800s the Laodician church was the 1800s; in the 20th century the Philidiphian chuarch was the 1800s.

    I can live with the 7 historical churches being 7 historical churches.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    This includes lots of Revelation events. The major outline (one digit numbers) is explained frequently in BB.

    ------------------------------------
    Expanded pretrib pre-mill timeline:
    (this is a work in progress, please comment
    -- constructive comments & even destructive
    comment help. thank you.)

    0. church age continues

    1. rapture/resurrection

    2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

    2a. Starting events
    2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
    2a2. The revelation of the AC

    2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
    2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
    2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
    ---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
    2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
    2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
    2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
    2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
    ----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

    2c. the mid-tribulation events
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
    2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
    2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
    2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
    2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
    2c6. destruction by AC of false church completed (Rev 7:16)
    2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
    2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8 )
    2c9. Rise of the False Prophet completed (Rev 13:11-15)
    2c10. MOB=mark of the beast initiated (Rev 13:16-18 )
    2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
    2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
    ----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
    2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
    ----- (Rev 12:1-6)

    2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2d0. Rule of the Antichrist
    2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
    2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
    ---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
    2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

    2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
    ------- (Rev 16:12-16)
    2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
    ------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18 )
    2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
    ------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
    2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
    2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
    ------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

    (2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
    ---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
    3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
    - 19:20-22!
    3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

    5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

    6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

    7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

    8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

    9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

    10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
    and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!
    ------------------------------------
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    BobRyan: //2. There is no 7 year period mentioned anywhere (spelling corrected) in the book of Revelation.//

    You are exactly RIGHT! I note that Vitamin C is also not noted in Revelation, but I take 1000 mg a day to enhance my immune system.

    --------------------------------------------
    While this (note on another venue)
    notes that 42 months of 30 days are
    1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
    there is another related prophetic time:
    "time, and times, and half (a time)" or
    'time, times, and a dividing of time'.
    (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).
    Ah, these are mentioned, just no mention that
    'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years.

    Dan 9:27 [KJV1611 Edition]:
    And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
    and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
    and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
    hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
    & that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

    Dan 9:27 implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th week.
    I believe the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
    in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

    Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
    time-times-and-half-a-time passages & half weeks:

    All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:

    Dan 7:25 [KJV1611 Edition]:
    And he shall speake great words against
    the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke
    to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand,
    vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.

    The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

    Dan 12:7 [KJV1611 Edition]:
    And I heard the man clothed in linnen,
    which was vpon the waters of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand,
    and his left hand vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer, that it shalbe
    for a time, times, and an halfe: and when hee shall haue accomplished
    to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall bee finished.

    The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

    Rev 11:1-3 [two references from KJV1611 Edition]:
    And there was giuen me a reede like
    vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple
    of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
    2 But the Court which is without the
    Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles, and the holy citie
    shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.
    3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
    and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
    clothed in sackcloth.

    The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
    measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
    Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
    The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days

    Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
    for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
    this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are suggested

    Rev 11:2 [KJV1611 Edition]:
    But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
    and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
    and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote
    fourty and two moneths.

    The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
    where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
    of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
    The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
    in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
    Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
    Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of Holies & Holy Place
    building is being built.
    Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
    This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
    is where the 3ed most holy shrine of the Muslim world stands
    today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
    in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
    about 686AD.

    Rev 12:6 [reference #6 from JKV1611 Edition]:
    And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand, two hundred, and threescore dayes.

    The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years.

    Rev 12:14 [KJV1611 Edition]:
    And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that shee might flee into the wildernesse into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and halfe a time, from the face of the serpent.

    God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
    This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.

    Rev 13:5 KJV1611 Edition]:
    And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and blasphemies, and power was giuen
    vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.

    This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
    3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
    ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
    This also indicates two periods, both of which could be 3½-years
    in length.

    So here is what I end up with for the two suggested each 3½-year-periods from Daniel 9:27.

    1. - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
    - the two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years
    - the holy city (Jerusalem) is tread underfoot (while the temple /in --- Jerusalem/ is built)

    2. - The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.
    - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
    - The woman (Yisrael) flees into the wilderness 3½-years
    - God protects the woman (Yisrael) in the wilderness 3½-years.

    To use these to halves of Daniel's 70th week
    (each 3½-years long) in any other manner puts one
    into contradictions with different prophecies.
    Several have mentioned, if 2 different periods, why
    not five? To which I still say: no reason
    to do that. Daniel in Daniel 9 just talks about the
    two halfs of the one week (70th Week of Daniel).

    One that keeps getting run into is the saying that
    the two 3½-year periods have already happened.
    That contradicts the saying in Daniel 9 that
    the Messiah shall give of Himself AFTER THE
    69th WEEK (not in the middle of 'week' 70).
    --------------------------------------------

    I note the Book of Revelation never mentions Velcro. But Velcro sure does hold my shoes on my feet well. Velcro is the best invention ever for people with bad backs.

    Gorsh, 3½ + 3½ = 7. Who would have thought it?
     
  10. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    I appreciate your response, but where are the Scripture references for these conclusions?
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    Are you familiar with 'extrapolation'? 'Extrapolation' means 'to compute outside the given data'. That is what those who say the 7-sub-ages are doing: computing outside the given data (that is, the Bible). It is about as wasted an effort to figure as Clarence Larkin's drawings of the Great Pyramid of Egypt. If you go by his figures, you will find we are in the Millennial Messianic Kingdom :laugh:
     
  12. antiaging

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    7 years is mentioned in Dan. 9 as the 70th week or last 7 years to bring in everlasting righteousness. All scriptures about the end time in any prophetic book must coincide with each other with no contrandictions.

    The thousand years in not spent in heaven. The Saints follow Jesus down to the Earth and spend the thousand years on the Earth. It plainly shows that Earth armies surround the camp of the saints on the Earth at the end of the thousand years.

    Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.

    Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Those were on Earth with Jesus after His return.
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

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    Many Christians have different understandings Revelation.

    Ed Edwards,

    In my early Christian life, I was in your shoe. I used to believe the same things as what you mentioned on Revelation. I used to believe chapter 2 and 3 represent the history of Church for example, the first church occured in between 30 A.D. to 100 A.D., second church occured in year from 100 A.D. to 325 A.D. blah, blah.... But I realized, there is no hint in chapter 2 and 3 telling us what year of period, which church, we are in right now. My understanding of chapter 2 and 3 showing us, there were literal seven churches in local of Asia(now Turkey) during John's time. Christ knew their spiritual and works, what they had done. These are apply to us as individual, which one, that our strength or weak spiritual. These are blessings, and chastened. Also, these are conditionals with warnings. Chapter 2 and 3 covers throughout all centuries which speaken toward us as believers, well, as we are the 'Church'.

    Also, I would like to say of Rev. 1:19. Three things, what Christ said to John:

    1. 'the things which thou hast seen'
    2. 'the things which are'
    2. 'the things which shall be hereafter'

    Christ told him, to write down, what he sees - past, present, and future. The book of Revelation covers whole history of Church, Satan, and Christ.

    Many saying of 'the things which shall be hereafter' is speak of future seven years of Tribulation Period after the rapture of the church.

    But, Christ doesn't saying it.

    How about Rev. 4:1- "and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."?

    Many saying of Rev. 4:1-2 is the picture of future event, that the Church will be rapture prior seven year of Tribulation Period.

    The problem is. The observe of scent of Rev. 4:1-2 saying nothing of second advent, neither it saying that Christ shall descend out of heaven, neither it mentions of resurrection, neither it mentions of gathering together. The scene of Rev. 4:1-2 tells us, in John's vision, he saw an angel in the heaven, told him to come up here. John was asked alone, to come up here. Verse 2 described of John's experince in his spirit that he was caught up, it don't mean that it is the picture of rapture. It speaks of John's revelation. Revelation means supernatural communication between God and man by in visions and dreams. Rev. 4:2 is same as Rev. 1:10 saying, "I was in the Spirit", both are described of John's revelation. Both have do nothing with rapture or second advent. Both are speak of John, himself alone has experince of his revelation.

    The angel told John, to write down, what he sees the future things.

    Rev. 4:1 seems telling us, it is not yet happen.

    But, remember, the word 'revelation' is a supernatural communication between God and man by visions and dreams. Verse 2 tells us, John said, he was in the Spirit, it doesn't mean that he was actual raptured. It described of his spirit was carried up by through his vision, while he was on island of Patmos. He was not die yet. He was still alive in his very old age. He saw the things in his own vision. He was not rapture, but his spirit was carried up into heaven by vision to see things.

    Rev. 4:1-2 already happened to John about 1900 years ago. "Hereafter" of Rev. 4:1- it doesn't limited to chapter 4 and 5 only. "hereafter" covers whole history from First century to second advent. Ok.

    Many saying of 24 elders of Revelation chapter 4 are represent of Church, because they will be rapture and are rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ.

    But, John doesn't saying that the 24 elders are represent Church. I believe the 24 elders are angelic beings, they are like as God's council. I believe they are already up there sitting round around the throne of Christ. Even, also, the four beasts are already there too.

    The scene of chapter 4 and 5 talking about the activity around the throne of Christ, what they are doing. I believe chapter 4 and 5 are now happening. Countless of angels and souls of saints are now worshipping Christ in heaven. 24 elders and four beasts are now worshipping Christ in heaven. Everyone in heaven, are worshipping Christ. Chapter 4 and 5 are all talking about worshipping. Chapter 4 say nothing of judgment & rewards, so called, "judgment seat of Christ". They interpreting chapter 4 is speak of judgment seat of Christ, because of 24 elders wear 24 "crowns". But, it doesn't saying that the 24 elders are represent Church. I am no doubt that, I believe 24 elders are angelic beings. We know that Christ already have his own crown on his head in the heaven. It doesn't mean that Christ receive the "reward" from his Father in heaven. The fact is Jesus is God as deity. Christ was already there in heaven long time before he came to earth for calvary. 'Crown' is represent of power and authority.

    This post is already long. So, I better stop, and make post into parts, to discuss more in the next post on Revelation.

    To be continued.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Then you agree that the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 is in Dan 9 not Revelation. The last 7 years of that 490 years pertains to the Messiah -- the first coming of the Messiah according to Dan 9 and unless you have a way of slicing up Bible timelines and inserting "as-yet-undefined" gaps of 1000's of years into the middle of them -- then the 490 timeline prophecy of Dan 9 - stays in Dan 9.

    Jesus does not come to earth when he returns.

    "I GO to prepare a PLACE for you and If I GO I will COME AGAIN and RECEIVE you to Myself" John 14.

    "Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the air to MEET the Lord" 1Thess 4

    Quite simply - when Jesus returns - He takes the saints to heaven.

    But first he causes the saints (those who are asleep) to "come to life" in the "FIRST RESURRECTION" of Rev 20:4-5.

    The event that takes place at the 2nd coming described in Rev 19 in detail.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    Some religions such as Seventh Day Advent believes when Christ shall come, he will call saints to be caught up together and bring them to heaven, and they will STAY up in the heaven with Christ for a thousand years. That why, they interpreting Revelation chapter 20.

    BobRyan,

    There are many areas that I do agree with Seventh Day Advent doctrines, that they believe, we must be endure to the end then shall be saved, and salvation is conditional. I do agree with SDA's teaching that the rapture shall be posttribulational. I have difficult deal with sabbath issues as what SDA teaching. Because, I feel that many religions switched 'seventh day' - "sabbath" to Sunday service. Sunday service is not find in the Bible. Many religions point to book of Acts, that the Early Church did observe on Sunday as service, because of "first day of the week". For a good example of 1 Cor. 16:2 - 'first day of week', many saying it is the evidence of Early Church did giving tithe on the first day of week - Sunday, it has do with Sunday service.

    But, the context of chapter 16 say nothing of "Sunday service", neither, it mentions of 'tithe'. The context of passage talking about bring things to the storehouse, for the supplies of what the poor people need. Paul told them, that he and his team will collect stuffs like, clothing, food, letters, money, etc. and bring them to Jerusalem, to giving out to the poor people. That passage have do nothing with the 'proof' of tithe and 'Sunday service'.

    Also, I have disagree with SDA. Last year, I did visited SDA church in Livonia on Saturday, that church have an intepreter.

    After the service over. There was lunch in the gym. I went over there. They do not bring meat to the gym. They only bring vegetables. I was wondering why they do not bring meat to gym. A lady told me, eating meat is foridden. I told her, we can allow eat meats, because God sent vision to Peter in book of Acts, that God shew of wild beasts to him. Peter told him, he refuses to eat them. God told him, he can eat them. It is the picture of salvation is open to Gentiles. The lady say nothing to me.

    From that time, I decide not attend SDA church, because I do not agree with them on foridden for eating meats, and also, I do not agree with SDA's teaching that when Christ shall come at second advent, will bring saints to heaven and STAY UP with Christ for 1000 years. They misintepreting what Revelation chapter 20 saying.

    Also, I strongly disagree with premillennial doctrine as what they interpreting Revelation chapter 20.

    Later this week, I will discuss on chapter 20 more deep and clear.

    I realized that, Revelation chapter 20 is the mostly hot debate than any chapters of Revelation.

    I understand as basic as what Revelation 20:1-6 talking about. This passage of verse 3-6 give us the picture of saints' SOUL(vs. 4), that they are present reigning with Christ in the heaven, since, they had overcame the world at their death(Rev. 3:5), because they refuse compromising with the beast(world system),and they separated from them, thousands of them were beheaded for not compromising with false religion system such as Roman Catholic or Muslim religion. Now they are sharing their "first resurrection" that their souls are now in the heaven since they were died(physical). "First resurrection" pictured as eternal life same as salvation.

    Since Rev. 20:1-3 telling us, Christ('angel') did victory over Satan at Calvary, he already brought the 'Key'(vs.1) by victory over Satan. That Christ already given 'key' to the Church(Matt. 16:18-19) to spread the gospel over the world. 'Key' of Rev. 20:1 pictured as power and authroity. Christ already given power to the Church to spreading the gospel over the world - Matt. 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16; and Acts 1:8. Church got power from Christ by sent Holy Spirit pour upon them at Pentacost Day of Acts chapter 2.

    So, Revelation 20:1-6 is already happening right now for almost 2000 years. 'A or 'the thousand years' represent length time or period. It could be last for several thousand years, yet, it is a temporary time. The saints will not stay in the heaven(third heaven) with Christ for forever and ever.

    At second advent, Christ shall bring New Jerusalem down to earth(new earth), as He shall bring saints from heaven, so, that, their souls shall be unity with their new body(1 Cor. 15:51-57), and the alive remain saints on earth shall be caught up to meet saints who already died in Christ, and they shall always be with the Lord forever and ever, where He goes.

    We will NOT stay up in the heaven(third heaven) at second advent. We will reign with Christ ON new earth for forver and ever....

    Later this week, I will discuss more on Revelation chapter 20.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

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    John 14:1-3 say nothing of millennial or "pretrib rapture" either. This passage is talking about the hope. Christ tells us, that we should not be worry or be sorrow for Jesus be being departing from us at his death(calvary). Christ told disciples, they should not be worry or sorrow over him. Because, he promises them, where he dwells in the heaven - New Jerusalem, if they doubt, He told them so. When he shall come again, he will receive us, and to be with him where he dwells- eternal.

    John 14:1-3 didn't saying that when Christ shall come again, and we will STAY UP in the heaven for forever and ever. This passage is talking about the hope, that we shall be always with the Lord for forever and ever.

    When Christ shall come again, He shall send New Jerusalem out of third heaven, put it on new earth, and we shall dwell in it with Christ forever and ever - Revelation chapter 21.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  17. BobRyan

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    I admit that I find your postings to be well thought out and accurate on many points. I appreciate your insights even if there are places where we differ -- no problem (just ask Brother Bob, Pastor Bob, Ed Edwards or HP - people that I agree with in many cases even if sometimes we differ).

    As for the millennium "in heaven" the primary reason for that is the combination of 1thess 4 (the dead in Christ rise first) - John 14 (I will come again and receive you to myself is only one promised coming of Christ to receive the saints) and Rev 20 "the FIRST resurrection". Even Matt 24 goes to the same sequence where post-trib the saints are all gathered to Christ. Once - not multiple gathering-of-saints multiple appearings-to-receive-saints, not multiple second-comings to gather sains, not multiple FIRST resurrections of saints (or any of the other gimmicks some have tried to solve that scenario).

    If Rev 20 really is THE FIRST resurrection for the saints, if 1Thess 4 really shows the resurrection of the saints happening at Christ's "coming again" and if John 14 is corrrect in saying that Christ will come one time in the future -- just once - and "receive us" to Himself -- then we must be in heaven during the 1000 years that follows the FIRST resurrection.

    I freely admit that this is not a view that is shared by all other groups.

    But if the premise given above is correct - then this is the correct Bible backed view by all accounts.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Mar 11, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2008
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    1. Revelation states clearly that the New Jerusalem does not come down out of heaven until after the 1000 years - a millinnium that starts at the Rev 19 second-coming and "FIRST" resurrection according to Rev 19-21.

    2. John 14 states that Christ will "come again" to RECEIVE the saints -- just once. And that He is now GONE to that PLACE where He is preparing a PLACE for us. He comes back not to be with us where we ARE - but to take us to be with HIM where HE has gone. So when we see the saints "taken up" in 1Thess 4 it is in regard to that John 14 promise of Him "recieving US" up to where He is -- not us "receiving Him DOWN" to where we are.

    BTW - I have a question for you - suppose that what I have said here is 100% correct (as I believe it is) what "breaks"?? What key doctrine or teaching do you hold that would not work in this case?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

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    BobRyan,

    Many interpreting chapter 19 to 21 into chronologically. Myself used to believe it in my early Christian life. Later, I realized the book of revelation have seven cycles as retelling the events.

    First Cycle: Revelation chapter 1 -3 speak of different types of Churches' spiritual apply to us throughout centuries till second advent

    Second Cycle: Revelation chapter 4-5 speak of activity and worshipping Christ in Heavn is now happening.

    Third Cycle: Revelation chapter 6-7 of seven seals cover from Early Church history to second advent. I suggest Christians to read the comparison of Matthew 24:4-9; 29-31 with Revelation chapter 6. Both are fit together so beautifully. Also, chapter 7 is the picture of rapture, the salvation first came upon Jews(144,000), then secondly - Gentiles (vs. 9-17) according to Romans 1:16. It is the picture of redemption(sealed) their souls for salvation(Romans 8:19-23).

    Fourth Cycle: Revelation chapter 8-11 of seven trumpets toward second advent. Notice Rev. 11:15-18 telling us, the judgement shall come upon the world, the resurrection will come upon them, saints shall receive rewards, lost people shall be punished.

    Fifth Cycle: Revelation chapter 12-14 speak of the history about Christ, Satan, and Church, cover from Calvary to second advent.

    Sixth Cycle: Revelation chapter 15-19 speak of seven vials pour down upon lost people toward second advent. The doom of Babylon. Satan and his army shall be defeated at second advent

    Seventh Cycle: Revelation chapter 20-22 speak of Satan was defeated at Calvary, and Church is now reigning with Christ both in heaven and earth since Christ given the key to Church- Matt. 16:18-19; Matt. 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16; and Acts 1:8. After the millennium ended, Church shall be persecution by Satan and his army, then Satan and his army shall be destroyed by fire from heaven(pictured as second advent), then the resurrection come, and the judgment of the world. Then, after the judgment finished, God will create new heavens and new earth, we shall reign on new earth with Christ for forever and ever. That's it.

    You see, the judgment of world and saints are repeat retelling of Rev. 11:15-18; Rev. 14:14-20; and Rev. 20:11-15. These are retelling the events.

    The book of Revelation is not written in chronolically order, it is retelling the events.

    Seven seals, seven trumpets, seven thunders, seven vials all are merge together toward second advent.

    BobRyan, you saying the Church will reign with Christ in heaven for 1000 years, then I ask you, what will be happen to earth during 1000 years???? You have to show verse to prove us what will be happen to the earth during 1000 years according as what SDA teaching.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  20. DeafPosttrib

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    BobRyan,

    I understand of your point on John 14:1-3.

    I know what Christ spoken of 'place' means. It speaks of New Jerusalem.

    Many saints who already died, their souls are now in heaven with the Lord, even, they are already in New Jerusalem.

    John 14:1-3 is speak toward to us as alive and remain saints in the final generation who will see Christ coming in the clouds, and he shall receive us in the air, and we shall be with the Lord, where he is. I have no problem with John 14:1-3. It is the promise and hope. John 14:1-3 doesn't saying that we shall stay in Father's hosue for 1000 years. The point of John 14:1-3 telling us, that we shall always be with the Lord, where He is, -forever and ever.

    Also, yes both John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess. 4:15-18 telling the same thing. But, both didn't saying of 'pretrib rapture' or 'millennium' either. Both are describe of the promise and hope that we shall see our love ones again, and we shall be ever with the Lord forever and ever.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     

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