Unfinished Business

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Timsings, Jan 5, 2008.

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  1. Timsings

    Timsings
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    In the recent thread concerned with whether a person can drink and be saved, the claim was made that Jesus never drank alcoholic wine and that it was blasphemous to say that he did. I asked for an explanation for this but never saw one. I admit that I did not read the last half of the thread. It was too long and too tedious. In any case, I would still like to have an answer to my question. How can you claim that Jesus never drank alcoholic wine?

    I'm not trying to restart the other thread. I am simply curious about the claims that were made.

    Tim Reynolds
     
  2. StefanM

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    I don't buy the theory, but here goes:

    1) The Bible says drinking alcohol in any amount is a sin.

    2) Jesus never sinned.

    3) Therefore, Jesus never drank any alcohol.

    I don't buy the first premise, so I can deny the conclusion.
     
  3. mcdirector

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    Glancing through this article, I believe it will cover the the side of the argument you are looking for.

    I only glanced though, I did my own research and reading long ago.
     
  4. AndrewG

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    Good link mcdirector. :thumbs:
     
  5. Trotter

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    I don't recall that. Mind giving a reference?

    I subscribe to the tee-totalling crowd, but I have no problem with whether Jesus' wine had alcohol in it or not. It really does not concern me. Personally, I believe it did, but that does not give anyone license to go out and get smashed.
     
  6. preachinjesus

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    This place cracks me up.

    Baptists and alcohol...what a mix...ha!
     
  7. faith.hope.love

    faith.hope.love
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    What about Romans 14?

    Romans 14
    The Weak and the Strong
    1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
    5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

    9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
    " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
    'every knee will bow before me;
    every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

    13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

    19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

    22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
     
  8. Sopranette

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    I'm inclined to think He didn't for two reasons:

    First, He was a spiritual leader, and people in leadership positions are commanded not to drink.

    Second, because His body was human, therefore could be affected by alcohol.

    love,

    Sopranette
     
  9. KJVkid

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    I'm inclined to think He didn't for two reasons:

    It really doesn't matter what we are "inclined" to think. Jesus Christ didn't "drink" or "make" alcohol. He is the SINLESS son of God. The people who have their wine drinking jesus are "soft" on lots of sinful things. Read back through their posts.
     
  10. Sopranette

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    Unless you can prove from scripture whether He did or not without any doubts, we can only be "inclined" to believe one way or another.
    So, where's your proof, KJV Kid?

    love,

    Sopranette
     
    #10 Sopranette, Jan 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2008
  11. Sopranette

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    Okay, so I did a read through through the other posts, where you claim these posters are soft on other sins. No proof there, either.

    love,

    Sopranette
     
  12. annsni

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    Drinking alcohol is not a sin. There is not one verse that says it is. It speaks of avoiding it, it speaks of not getting drunk and drunkeness as a sin but it does not say that drinking any alcohol is a sin. Period.

    It is absolutely right culturally and historically to say that Jesus drank wine.
     
  13. Dale-c

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    It can be proven that wine in the Bible CAN mean alcoholic wine.
    It can't be proven that is ever means non alcoholic wine.

    Also, KJVkid, I disagree with your line of logic.
    If Jesus did it, then it was NOT sin.
    We don't say it is wrong therefore Jesus did not drink real wine.
    We say Jesus drank wine therefore it is not a sin.
     
  14. KJVkid

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    Did Jesus Drink Wine?

    The theologians have taught all down the ages that our blessed
    Lord and Savior did drink intoxicating drink, as His ordinary everyday drink, because they say there was no such thing as unintoxicating wine in His day. But the eyes of some of the most learned of our day appear to be opening wide enough to see that the theologians were wrong.

    Dr. Kynaston, Professor of Greek at Durham University, says:
    "We cannot prove from the words in the Bible that our Lord did or did not drink intoxicating wine." This is a step in the right direction. The theologians have also taught equally definitely that oinos always meant intoxicating wine; but Sir Richard Jebb, Professor of Greek at Cambridge University said that "oinos is a general term, and might include all kinds of beverages."

    Anacreon, who wrote some five hundred years, B.C., Ode

    "Only males tread the grapes, Setting free the Oinos (wine)."

    Here at this early period, we see that the juice in the grapes was called (wine) oinos. And all sane persons know that the juice in the grapes is not intoxicating. Nothing is clearer to those who have studied this question than the Hebrew word "yain" and the Greek word "oinos" were, as Professor Sir R. Jebbs says of "oinos," general words in those early days, and were used to describe sometimes the fruit on the vines, the juice in the grapes, the juice when it was being pressed out, when it was preserved in an unfermented state and therefore unintoxicating, and when it was fermented and intoxicating.

    There is overwhelming proof that there has been in use all down the centuries, in all grape-growing countries, grape-juice fermented and intoxicating, and also an abundance of grape-juice preserved in an unfermented state, and therefore not intoxicating; and both have been called wine.

    But the unintoxicating, in addition to being called wine, has been called by various other names, such as glukus, vinum, mustum, sapa, careum, siraeum, hepsema, pekmez, new wine. A great
    many more names might be added, but a full description may be seen in Dr. Norman Kerr's book on Wines, Scriptural and Eccleiastical, and also in the Temperance Bible Commentary by Dr. F. R. Lees and Dr. Dawson Burns. These words mainly describe a wine made from grape juice by reducing the juice to a sweet liquid by boiling. It was too thick and too sweet to drink pure. And this is a main reason why the Greeks and Romans added so much water to it before drinking, and also why water was added to it before it was used at the Lord's Supper. Water was also added to the intoxicating wine to reduce its intoxicating power.

    There is therefore clearly no justification whatever for the misleading statements of the theologians, that there was no such thing as unintoxicating wine in the days of our Lord. It is equally clear that there is no proof, either in holy scripture or out of it, that our Lord ever drank intoxicating wine.

    It is no more true to say that the word "wine" always meant intoxicating wine than it is to say that the word "bread" always meant fermented bread just as the word "bread" sometimes meant fermented bread and sometimes unfermented. So the word "oinos" (wine) sometimes was used to describe the grape-juice when it was fermented and sometimes when it was unfermented. St. Matthew 26:26 reads:

    Jesus took bread and blessed it.

    Here it is not stated whether the bread was fermented or not, but we know it was unfermented (unleavened), because it was the Passover bread. Haggai 1:11 reads:

    I called for a drought...upon the corn, and upon the new wine, and upon the oil.

    It is clear that the new wine in this verse means the growing grapes, for if the wine was in the casks or skin bottles the drought could have no effect upon it. There isn't a trace of evidence to prove that our Savior Jesus Christ ever drank or sanctioned the use of intoxicating drink. Habit-forming wine is alcoholic wine, and
    any preacher or layman who drinks "much wine" is drinking alcoholic wine, and this is forbidden in the Word of God.

    The late Dr. Bill Kanoy

    I will say no more here on this subject as it's very obvious you are bent on drinking. In trying to condone your sin have to drag The Blesses Son of God down to your level.
     
  15. Sopranette

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    So you have only proved that there is no proof that Jesus did or did not drink wine.

    And who is bent on drinking? Again, accusations without proof.

    Sopranette
     
  16. Linda64

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    Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

    Since the Lord Jesus Christ was "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners," we may safely assume that He would not make that which is called in Scripture a mocker and deceiver of man, causing untold misery.

    Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
     
  17. Joe

    Joe
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    WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT
    CHRISTIANS & ALCOHOL?
    (NEW LIFE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCH)

    Once again, the Word of God is very clear on the subject of alcoholic beverages & the believer. The
    Scripture clearly condemnes the use of alcohol as a beverage for the child of God EXCEPT FOR
    MEDICINAL PURPOSES.
    Some churches, however, accept the practice of drinking alcoholic
    beverages & some, like our church, condemn it. What do the Scriptures actually say on the subject?
    I think a good place to start would be James 4:17..."Therefore to him who knows to do GOOD and
    does not do it, to him it is sin." We then look at Romans 14:21... "It is GOOD neither to eat meat nor
    drink wine
    nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak." Also
    consider a host of other verses...(Gen. 9:20-27;19:30-38;Lev.10:8-11;Num. 6:3;Dt.21:20;Judges
    13:4,7,14;ISam. 25:36-38;IISam.11:13,28-29;IKings 16:8-10;20:13-21;Esther 1:5-
    22;Prov.20:1;21:17;23:21;23:29-30;23:21;23:32;23:33;23:35;23:24;31:4-5;Eccl. 2:3;10:17;Is.5:11-
    12,22;22:13;28:1,3,7;56:12;Jer. 35:5-8,14,19;Dan.1:5,8,16;10:3;5:3;3:25-28;Hosea 4:10-11;7:5;Joel
    3:3;Amos 4:1;6:3-6;Hab.2;Mt.24:48-51;Lk.1:15;12:45;21:34;Rom.13:13;14;ICor.
    5:11;6:10;11:21;Gal.5:21;Eph.5:18;ITim.3:3,8;I Peter 4:3). Each of these verses tell us about the evils
    of alcohol. If alcohol is so evil & such a sin then why did Jesus turn the water to wine? The answer is
    that he did not turn the water into intoxicating drink, but rather into the "fruit of the vine"
    . You see, the
    "wine" of today is not the same as the "wine" of the Scripture. T
    here are a few words that may help us
    identify this truth.... One such word is "sikera" (Lk.1:15) and is usually translated as "strong drink or
    wine". The Hebrew equivalent is "shekar" (Prov.20:1;Is.5:1). Another word is "gleukos" refering to
    "new wine". The Hebrew equivalent is "tirosh" (Acts 2:13;Prov. 3:10;Hos.9:2;Joel 1:10). Then finally,
    there is a word used for the most common "wine" of the Bible - N.T. "oinos", O.T. "yayin". This latter
    word refered to the simple fruit of the vine & was deliberately not intoxicating. The Hebrew word has
    as its root meaning..."to bubble up or boil". The practice of boiling the juice would make a paste that
    could be stored without fermenting. Water would be added to this paste to make a non-alcoholic
    beverage. Even in instances where there was water added directly to the juice, it was at least three parts
    water for every one part juice making it well below what would be considered alcoholic. Drinking wine
    unmixed with water was considered barbaric in Bible times & no child of God would ever be found
    drinking straight alcohol.
    Another important point is that the highest possible alcoholic content of any
    drink drunk by a believer would have been from 2.25% to 2.75% being mixed with water. This is well
    below the 3.2% that today would classify a drink as alcoholic.
    Therefore, the wine of the Bible was
    never alcoholic per today's standard unless it was unmixed, which a believer never did unless it was for
    medicinal purposes.
    The common wine of Bible times would have had less alcohol than even a can of
    beer today.
    The verses given above are only a few of the verses found in the Bible that condemn the
    use of alcohol, not just for the believer, but for anyone. There is absolutely no support in the Bible for
    the use of alcohol, except for the use as a medicine.
    It is interesting that when Paul gives the
    qualification for a pastor, he is told that a pastor is not to be beside wine. In other words, the Greek
    literally says that a pastor/leader in the Christian community is not even to be beside the stuff, let alone
    drinking it.
    Proverbs tells us not even to look at it while it is red in the glass. Therefore, we ask....Is it a
    sin for a Christian to drink alcohol? The answer is yes it is a sin unless it is for health related reasons. Space limits our ability to do a detailed teaching on this subject, but if you would like to e-mail us
    about information on receiving teaching tapes on this or any other subject, we would be glad to get you
    more detailed information & teachings on specific passages.. Our society, as well as many of our
    churches, have become pagan in their practice of drinking intoxicating drink, i.e., modern day
    barbarians. There is no greater threat to the home, youth & society than the enemy of alcohol.

    http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cach...le+verses&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us&lr=lang_en
     
    #17 Joe, Jan 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2008
  18. saturneptune

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    Jesus probably did not drink alcoholic wine.

    That is not the point. The point is that you do not have a clue as to whether He did or did not. You make absolute statements that have no basis, and do nothing but inflame the board.

    For a mere 40 some odd posts, you sure have stirred the pot, not on Scripture, but your opinion.
     
  19. Dale-c

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    Sad to say but Sola Scripture has been long forgotten by many baptists these days.
     
  20. Dale-c

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    By the way, KJVkid, saying that theologians never saw this like you did for centureies and now suddenly they do puts your position on the same level and the Jehovah's Witness' and Mormons and the CHurch of Christ and many other modered extra Biblical "revelations"
     
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