UNION OR CONFEDERACY

Discussion in 'Forum for Polls' started by ASLANSPAL, Feb 24, 2005.

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UNION OR CONFEDERACY

  1. CONFEDERACY C.S.A.

    93.3%
  2. UNION U.S.A.

    6.7%
  1. ASLANSPAL

    ASLANSPAL
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    If you could go back in time to a border state
    lets say Kentucky with whom would you fight
    for.

    CONFEDERACY

    OR

    UNION
     
  2. KenH

    KenH
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    Northerners were involved with slavery as well as Southerners. It's not like Northerners have clean hands on this subject. We also know from statements by Northerners that if they could have preserved the Union without freeing the slaves they would have done so.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. ChurchBoy

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    I would most certainly would have would fought for the Union... [​IMG]
     
  4. Terry_Herrington

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    [​IMG]

    Although I was born and reared in Texas, knowing what I know now, I would have fought for the United States against the Rebels.
     
  5. KenH

    KenH
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    Statistics from this extremely sad time in U.S. history:


    Union: Combat Deaths: 110,070

    Union Other Deaths: 249,458

    Union Wounded: 275,175


    Confederate: Combat Deaths: 74,524

    Confederate Other Deaths: 124,000

    Confederate Wounded: 137,000+


    - www.historyguy.com/american_war_casualties.html


    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  6. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed
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    I think if the southerners back then knew what we do today, and the ramifications of the secession, that they would have decided to remain in the Union.

    Regardless of what the immediate and underlying issues for the war and secession were, the war did nothing but drive a larger wedge between the North and the South. So much so that 140 years after the fact we are still arguing about it.

    That war did nothing but hurt America as a whole and as individual states.

    Sometimes you have to give a little in order to get a little, or to just keep what you have left. The South stood on principle and refused to give any, or at least refused in advance before anything had even happened, and ultimately that led to the downfall of states' rights altogether and a long and bitter "war" even after the literal fighting had ended.

    I wish I could go back and tell my fellow countrymen of the Confederacy, before the mess began, what would come of them, their way of life, and their rights. Had they known they would have preserved the Union themselves without force.

    Of course, if I actually did live back then, not knowing what I know now, and living where I do now, I think I can safely say that I would have fought for my state and my country. Texas and the Confederate States of America.

    Of course, since we don't ive in the same times, anything we say is speculation. If you are from Northern states you would more than likely have fought for the North, and if you lived in Southern states you more than likely have fought for the South, regardless of what you know now because the simple fact is that you wouldn't have known it then.
     
  7. J.A.B.

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    we are looking at the southern states that think of this as a revolutionary war. being from Alabama originally, i would have fought for the south. not knowing what we know today, i would have just as soon fought for Britan during the revolutionary war than for the North in the civil war
     
  8. ASLANSPAL

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    I think the common southener was lied too by
    the rich aristocracy(elite) and were used
    as cannon fodder so they could hold on to their
    slaves..the war really was about slavery if you
    read the statements of secession ..slavey was
    the main ingredient. Can you be sentimental
    and loyal and still be decieved...you betcha
    and I think that is what happened to all the
    poor farm boys who were used as cannon fodder
    by rich landowners.


    A friend of mine sent me this e-mail he put it
    in words I agree with.

    If you ask most southerners, they have spun out talk out the
    side of their mouths, because they don't want to admit their history.

    The secession of South Carolina was initiated by Lincoln's election on an abolition plank. If you read the Declaration of Secession (http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#South Carolina), you will see that every single reason dredged up for secession was in direct relation to slavery.

    The document specifically mentions Lincoln's opposition to slavery, citing his "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free" as evidence that he intended to liberate the slaves.

    The Ordinance of Secession for Alabama (http://www.csawardept.com/documents/secession/AL/) begins by stating that Lincoln and his VP, Hamlin, were hostile to "domestic institutions". In the PC of the time, "domestic institutions" meant slavery.

    The Georgia Secession (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/geosec.htm) states:
    "The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery."

    The Alabama Secession (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/missec.htm):
    "In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course. Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."

    The only state right that really mattered was slavery. Its defence was tied to many other matters, but slavery was the root cause of it. Lincoln tried to portray it otherwise, until he needed popular support.

    It is certainly true that most southerners did not own slaves and there were some that were opposed to it - that's why some southerners fought for the Union. It is also true that not all northerners were for abolition. As well, most of those who were against slavery were not for equality. "Uncle Tom's Cabin" is as much about separation of races as it is about abolition.

    Most of the southerners were probably much like Robert E. Lee, who resigned his commission and refused the offer of field commander of Union field forces simply because he could not bring himself to fight against the citizens of his own state. Individually, the war was not about slavery to most of the soldiers. Politically, it was.

    From my experience, most of the uneducated Southerners will proclaim that it was not about slavery but about the evil federal government trying to run the states. Yeah, it tried to run them into not having slaves.

    The KKK began in Illinois. They adopted the Confederate Battle Flag in order to raise the specter of the war so that they could incite ignorant whites into taking action into their own hands and to instill fear of the federal government's racial equality.

    The Confederate Battle Flag - the Stars and Bars - is based on the Cross of St. Andrew - the Patron Saint of Scotland. St. Andrew was crucified, but had the cross turned on its side because he did not feel worthy of dying in the same position as Jesus. The design thus appealed to the strong Christian tradition as well as the common Celtic culture of the southern states.

    The Confederate Battle Flag has no business being flown over a state capital. It simply does not reflect what our government stands for. Saying that it honors the sacrifice of soldiers who fought and died is no different than putting up a Nazi flag for the soldiers who fought and died under Hitler without sharing either his political motivation or his hatred of Jews.

    XT

    Thanks xt for your help


    Well the poll so far tells me a lot and a lot

    about the make up of this board. Aprreciate the honesty of those who gave

    opinions and courage enough to say how they

    voted.

    As a native Texan transported back in time to
    the border state of Kentucky where they were on
    the front lines, I would have fought for the Union ..spiritually and politcally it was the only way to go
    but I would have felt griefed for those fighting
    in vain and for a lost cause...slavery.
     
  9. rlvaughn

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    An interesting thing in this "debate" is that we cannot help knowing what we know now, and that the people of 1860-64 had no way of knowing what we know now. Most of us who grew up in the Deep South would have fought for the C. S. A., just like our ancestors. Not being from a border state, that is a question I've never considered before. That was probably a harder choice.

    But knowing what I know now, I would not have fought for either side. That is a third option I didn't find on the poll.
     
  10. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Wish I could answer. I consider Alabama "home." I would surely have been a "state's righter" but also hope I would have had the wisdom to see the error of slavery. Iwish there had been an "I don't know" option in the poll.
     
  11. JGrubbs

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    Many of the great patriots of the CSA, like Robert E. Lee, didn't support slavery, but still supported the rights of the states to defend themselves from the tyrany of Lincoln. I would have spoken out against the institution of slavery, but would have fought with the CSA to defend my homeland.

    I can tell by reading many of these posts that the government schools have done a great job of indocrinating most to believe that hundreds of thousands of brave men fought and died to preserve the institution of slavery, when they didn't even own slaves themselves.
     
  12. J.A.B.

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    i dont think Lincoln is really the hero he is made out to be. He was great in holding a nation together, but he mad a lot of poor decisions. Most obviously his choice of generals
     
  13. delly

    delly
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    I'll say AMEN to that, JGRUBBS. But most of us "uneducated" Southerners are still so ignorant of what it was all about, I wonder why we even bother to read this post. Now, ASLANSPAL has so much experience concerning the Civic War, he knows exactly what the people were thinking, what the government was thinking and what it "really" was all about. Wow, that would make him really really old. My grandfather was born in 1850 and was a child of 12 when it started. He died in 1929. He was a tenant farmer who never owned anything and I'm sure he never thought of owning a slave. He raised his own "workforce".

    I think we need to stop fighting a war that was over long ago. Descendants of slaves enjoy the same freedoms we all have. What difference does it make who we would fight for now. As my black friends would say; it was a different time, a different place and different ideals. Hopefully most of us have gotten beyond those times.
     
  14. El_Guero

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    I would have FOUGHT for PEACE ...
     
  15. RockRambler

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    I think that is very true. But at the same time, why in the South do we continue flying Confederate flags and dressing up for "re-enactments"??? States Rights was the reason, but slavery was the catalyst of the war. I would think that Blacks do have a reason to be bitter when seeing Confederate flags and battlefield re-enactors. We (the South) need to quit trying to justify an unjust cause, IMO.

    I'm sure Jews would have a problem with Germans re-acting great battles from WWII, just because the Germans had pride in how tough their Nazi SS soldier-relatives were.
     
  16. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed
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    I would have no problem with having a re-enactment of WWII. They do it each time there is a movie made about that war. Do you see something wrong with movies depicting some soldiers as German-Nazis? They were there, so you can hardly have a battle without them.

    Same goes for Civil War re-enactments. It is not about the South. It is about history and entertainment. Have you ever seen a Civil War movie? Were you mad that they depicted Confederates in the movie? It is the same thing.

    I have never been to a re-enactment, but I would really like to one day. That's as close as we will ever get to knowing what it was like for our ancestors back then.

    ASLANSPAL, you said that most southerners who fought for the Union did so because they were anti-abortion. I would disagree with that.

    My ancestors who fought for the Union were from Arkansas. They lived in the parts controlled by Union forces. They fought for the Union because they wanted the money, including my g-g-grandfather. His older brother actually fought for both sides. He "enlisted", basically by force, with the Union at first and then ran off back home. He then did the same with the Confederates. When either side would come through looking for men, Uncle Bythal would hide in the woods behind the home. When the soldiers were gone his mother would ring the dinner bell to signal he could return. His father-in-law who was also my g-g-g-grandfather, and was 90 years old at the time, was actually put in a noose because he wouldn't tell where Uncle Bythal went. They never did get the nerve to actually hang him though. They were all poor farmers.

    You will find many more people from border states fought for the North, not because they were anti-abortion (those states had slaves too), but because they were poor and enlistment guaranteed a paycheck for their families.
     
  17. delly

    delly
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    Rock, a few misguided people still fly the Confederate flag, but dressing up for re-enactments is purely for re-enacting history. People all over the world dress up for re-enactments of historical events and time periods. Do you think those who dress in English Redcoat uniforms for Revolutionary war re-enactments hold the same beliefs as the Redcoats did back then? I don't believe they do. Many re-enactors will have both Confederate and Union uniforms so that they may dress either way when one side is short of men for a battle re-enactment. I know a little about those things as my son used to be in a re-enactment unit. He got "killed" in every battle he took part in. [​IMG] He did a good bit of acting at the Gettysburg 125th anniversary.
    Southerners could not re-enact battles if they didn't have Union re-enactors doing the same. My son was called upon several times to go to schools with his gear and make presentations to 3rd and 4th grade classes for their history lessons. The kids (even the black ones) loved learning about how the soldiers lived back then.

    I can't remember who said it but I always remember that old saying "He who forgets history is doomed to repeat it." We must remember those things, good and bad, that made us who we are.

    By the way, I don't like seeing a tee shirt that has Malcolm X on it. His face is a symbol of hated towards non blacks. Hate has no color and everybody (especially those who claim to be Christians) needs to let it go.
     
  18. RockRambler

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    Re-enactments and movies are two different things, not even related IMO.

    Delly, a serious question though...I have a cousin who is big on the re-enactments. Goes somewhere almost every couple of weeks it seems. He talks as if 90% of the re-enactors are from the South, no matter where the re-enactment is. Did your son find this to be the case too?
     
  19. PastorSBC1303

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    I would agree with the good moderator [​IMG]
     
  20. JGrubbs

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    Does that apply to the black confederate reenactors as well? Most reenactors I know have both blue and grey uniforms and "fight" for which ever side needs soldiers for the reenactment. It's about living history. We should never forget our history and what the brave patriots who went before us fought for. You call the War of Northern Agression an "unjust cause", while ignoring the fact that many of the Confederate men nethier owned slaves, or supported slavery.

    90% of the battles were fought in the South. The reenactors study the actual battles and try their best to re-create them with historical accuracy. You won't find reenactors in the South trying to win a battle for the confederates that was not won in the real historical battle. Again it's living history.

    Just last month I took my family to "The Battle of Townsend's Plantation", you can click here to view our photos from the event.

    Those who forget their past, are destin to repeat it!
     

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