United we stand divided we fall

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ASLANSPAL, Jul 1, 2005.

  1. ASLANSPAL

    ASLANSPAL
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    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/14/AR2005061401531.html


    Schenck said he plans to tell young evangelicals at a Christian music festival on July 1 that homosexuality is not a choice but a "predisposition," something "deeply rooted" in many people. "That may not sound shocking to you, but it will be shocking to my audience," he said.

    Saperstein said he is circulating a paper urging political moderates and liberals to "demonstrate their commitment to reduce abortions" by starting a campaign to reduce the number by half within two years.


    Saperstein, who heads the Religious Action Center, the Washington advocacy arm of the Reform movement in Judaism, said he believes the search for common ground is "both strategic and substantive."

    "I think it's genuine and real, this engagement of liberals in trying to cut the number of abortions in this country," he said. "And I think conservatives are sincere when they say, 'I may be against gay marriage, but the demonization of gays and lesbians is deeply troubling to me,' or when they say, 'You can't look at the Bible without seeing the call to care for the poor.' "

    "But right now on abortion, poverty, gay issues, the environment, there's a lot of talk about crossing the lines and finding common ground. There are elements of a common vision, but not yet common policy or legislative proposals."

    Schenck, who is president of Faith and Action, an evangelical organization on Capitol Hill, said that a willingness to reach across partisan lines is attractive, particularly to young people. "I think evangelicals are awakening to the vulnerability to being used in a political way. I hear a lot of people talking about that, about not being owned by a political party," he said.
     
  2. Alcott

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    "United we stand divided we fall"
    Ain't that cute?
     
  3. Baptist in Richmond

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    Interesting: thanks for the link!

    Regards,
    BiR
     
  4. LadyEagle

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    More liberal bunk.
     
  5. hillclimber

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    I don't want to reach common ground with homo's.
    I don't want to have dialog with Homo's.
    I don't care if it's deep rooted or a predisposition.
    I don't care how misunderstood they are.

    I want them on their knees before the Lord, or back in the closet.

    I hate having to explain to my 11 year old things that are so vile and evil.
     
  6. ASLANSPAL

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    Actually it is not liberal Schenck is a conservative Republican perhaps instead of
    a knee jerk judgement ..find out more about
    Schenck ..Americans want people working for
    common goals and to get things done instead
    of dividing the country through fear mongering
    and calling people this label or that label
    someone said in one of the posts. "I hate"
    "I don't care" another again used the tired
    sound bite of the word "liberal" as if it will
    invoke hate...guess what you have succeeded.
    You invoke hate against pragmatic people who
    actually want to unite around common goals and that being..."do not demonize gays" and "actually
    reduce abortions" the other choice is to just
    bash each other year after year with demagoguery.

    People need to hang on to that dislike which is
    fine but I believe the majority of the country
    wants pragmatists actually solving problems.

    Are people open to people repenting and actually
    reaching out to do the right thing or will those
    people who have turned ..get what I just heard.

    "Liberal!"
    "I don't care!"
    "Oh, How cute!"

    Actualy explain those statements and comment on
    Schenck who is not a liberal that is my salient
    point.
     
  7. hillclimber

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    If the majority wants pragmatists solving the countries problems, let it be proven by vote. The solution for the homosexual invasion into mainstream life is done through in your face compromises, in which Christian values cannot be accomodated. It is an area, similar to abortion, that can have no compromise, and come out pleasing to God.
     
  8. Claudia_T

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    It always amazes me How so many Christians today will declare to the world that "they are saved" and thus since under grace, they no longer need to keep the Law of God... the Ten Commandments. This hideious error is preached from Christian pulpits across the land.

    Yet then they wonder why it is that the morals in the United States are so corrupt. Too many Christians who claim "works don't matter" and keeping the law of God is "obsolete" do not want to lead by example and are horrified that there are so many abortions and so much homosexuality.

    It is easy to gravitate to those two sins... abortion and homosexuality, because those are the two that most Christians do not fall into and thus they can condemn it without worry. But when their own sins are pointed out they cry "I am under grace! Dont be legalistic!" The very ones who reach for the legal system to enforce their doctrines on others.

    Then while on the one hand they dont keep the law of God or preach it themselves, they turn around and will denounce the lack of morals in our country and seek to legislate morality and to try to bring others into line, morally, by the use of force. I dont remember Jesus getting involved in politics, though there were abuses of all sorts in his day. He said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

    Why is it that when it comes to the two sins, Homosexuality and Abortion, all of a sudden, everyone seems to know know what "sin" is (transgression of the law IJohn 3:4) ...and that is is condemned by God and that people who practice it are "going to Hell"?
     
  9. OCC

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    Hi there ClaudiaT. don't get me wrong...I'm not suggesting lawlessness but I was taught that the Ten Commandments was the law given to Israel. Even they couldn't keep it...it was given to drive us to sin so we would see our need for a Saviour.

    The law we are under now is to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbour as ourself. What are your thoughts on this?
     
  10. Claudia_T

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    The kingdom of God comes not with outward show. The gospel of the grace of God, with its spirit of self-abnegation, can never be in harmony with the spirit of the world. The two principles are antagonistic. “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Cor. 2:14.

    But today in the religious world there are multitudes who, as they believe, are working for the establishment of the kingdom of Christ as an earthly and temporal dominion. They desire to make our Lord the ruler of the kingdoms of this world, the ruler in its courts and camps, its legislative halls, its palaces and market places. They expect Him to rule through legal enactments, enforced by human authority. Since Christ is not now here in person, they themselves will undertake to act in His stead, to execute the laws of His kingdom. The establishment of such a kingdom is what the Jews desired in the days of Christ. They would have received Jesus, had He been willing to establish a temporal dominion, to enforce what they regarded as the laws of God, and to make them the expositors of His will and the agents of His authority. But He said, “My kingdom is not of this world.” John 18:36. He would not accept the earthly throne.

    The government under which Jesus lived was corrupt and oppressive; on every hand were crying abuses,—extortion, intolerance, and grinding cruelty. Yet the Saviour attempted no civil reforms. He attacked no national abuses, nor condemned the national enemies. He did not interfere with the authority or administration of those in power. He who was our example kept aloof from earthly governments. Not because He was indifferent to the woes of men, but because the remedy did not lie in merely human and external measures. To be efficient, the cure must reach men individually, and must regenerate the heart.

    Not by the decisions of courts or councils or legislative assemblies, not by the patronage of worldly great men, is the kingdom of Christ established, but by the implanting of Christ’s nature in humanity through the work of the Holy Spirit. “As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12, 13. Here is the only power that can work the uplifting of mankind. And the human agency for the accomplishment of this work is the teaching and practicing of the word of God.

    ------------------

    Claudia Thompson

    http://www.christiangraphics.org
    http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
     
  11. Claudia_T

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    Hi King James [​IMG]


    Since it is 1:30 in the morning here and I have to go to bed, I am just going to give you references to a couple of articles on one of my websites to read, one written by me and another by someone else:


    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/falseprophets.htm

    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/romans_chapter7.htm

    The first one written by me has a part of it that deals with the idea that "all we have to do now is love one another"...


    I'll copy and paste a little of it here for you:
    "Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked Jesus a question, saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:36-40 The reason that Jesus said, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" is because the first 4 commandments define love to God (Thou shalt have no other gods before me, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, etc.) and the last 6 define love to thy neighbor (Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal). This same idea is repeated by the Apostle Paul in the book of Romans:

    "...he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended (summarized) in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. " Romans 13:8,9: So you see then that love to God and neighbor is merely a SUMMARY of or is briefly comprehended in the Ten Commandment Law. And not only that but both Jesus and Paul were merely reiterating what had already been declared in old Testament times! Watch this:

    "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4,5.

    "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18.

    Sound familiar? Jesus was merely quoting directly out of the old testament when He said Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    God's claims have always been the same. Jesus did not really give us a "new" commandment to keep, He was bringing to light the foundation principles of love which have always underlined the ten commandments of old. This is why John said the following words:

    "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning." I John 2:3-7. The principles of His government are the same. For all proceed from Him "with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17.


    Claudia
     
  12. Claudia_T

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    King James,

    Just to add something more, you should go read the whole chapter of Romans 6 and really think about what it is saying to us.

    Think about this:


    Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    Now why even say that? Its obvious what law was being talked about... the ten commandments. The question was "Do we still need to keep the law now that we are under grace?" Sin is "transgression of the law"...

    1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    ...and the answer is "God Forbid!" Just because we are under grace doesnt give us license to break the law.

    I mean, which commandment are we free to break? Can we now steal? kill? covet our neighbor's goods? worship idols?

    Well of course not! Which commandment of the ten doesnt fall under the two of love God and love your neighbor? All Jesus did was give a summary of all ten of the commandments. and He said "Not one jot or tittle will pass from the law till havena and earth pass away" A jot and tittle means the dotting of an "i" and the crossing of the "t".

    In the New Age Spiritualism Movement, they teach that the Law of God is done away with. They teach "Do what you will and harm none" is the law. Isnt this the same thing taught from many Christian pulpits today? "Just love your neighbor".. and people are supposedly free to decide what this "love" is... But you see, God already defined for us what true love is and it is summed up in the ten commandments. This has always been and always will be true.

    New Age Spiritualists also believe that they themselves are 'The Law'. David Spangler, New Ager, makes it even clearer in this next statement about how he really feels about God's Law:


    'We can take all the Scriptures and all the teachings, and all the tablets and all the Laws, and all the marshmallows and have a jolly good bonfire and marshmallow roast, because that's all they are worth. Once you are the law, once you are the truth, you do not need it externally represented for you.' -David Spangler, 'Emergence: Rebirth of the Sacred', Findhorn Publications, pg. 144

    The Spirit Guide Ramtha, channeled by J.Z. Knight, says: 'every vile and wretched thing you do broadens your understanding If you want to do any wrong thing regardless of what it is, it would not be wise to go against that feeling; for there is an experience awaiting you and a grand adventure that will make your life sweeter.' -Quoted in Martin Gardner, 'Issness is her business', New York Review, April 9, 1987, pg. 18. And 'Seth' -the demon that spoke through the late Jane Roberts said:'There is no authority superior to the guidance of a person's inner self.' International Seth Seminar, Promotional Flyer, 1987.

    The Ten Commandments were meant to serve as a 'mirror' that we could look into- to see where we fall short of God's perfect character, but New Ager's have substituted God's Law for 'Love'. This so-called 'Love' is based on whatever you may 'feel' is the right thing to do; there is no definite right or wrong.


    'It is true that spiritualism is now changing its form and, veiling some of its more objectionable features, is assuming a Christian guise... but the bible is interpreted in a manner that is pleasing to the unrenewed heart, while its solemn and vital truths are made of no effect. Love is dwelt upon as the chief attribute of god, but it is degraded to a weak sentimentalism, making little distinction between good and evil. God's justice, his denunciations of sin, the requirements of his holy law, all are kept out of sight.'

    That sounds like a very accurate description about what the New Age is trying to promote!
    The Apostle Paul gave a stern warning. He said: 'Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one that we have preached to you, let him be eternally condemned.' -Galatians 1:8. These demonic spirits who are being 'channeled' through New Age Believers, can be seen for what they really are, if we remember Scriptural warning:

    And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.' Isaiah 8:19,20. If the Law of God is belittled then we can be sure that the message comes from one of Satan's Agents and not from the God of Heaven.

    Many Christians today do not realize that by teaching this idea that God's Law was done away... and that "all we have to do is love" are virtually teaching the very same doctrine that is taught in New Age Witchcraft. "Do what you will, but harm none".
     
  13. Claudia_T

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    One more thing then I'm really going to bed [​IMG]

    Just read over these verses and tell me if you really believe that somehow Jesus changed the commandments... and that He told us now all we have to do is have "love" and that everything else He had said previously about keeping the commandments didnt apply anymore.


    Mt:5:
    16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
    17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


    Matthew 19:
    16: And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18: He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19: Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


    Mt:22:
    35: Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
    36: Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38: This is the first and great commandment.
    39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


    Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.


    Mk:10:19: Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.


    Mk:12:29:
    28: And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
    29: And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
    30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
    31: And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
    32: And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
    33: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
    34: And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
     
  14. Claudia_T

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    Cant believe Im doing this at 2:30 in the morning but I couldnt sleep till I said this part too [​IMG]

    One thing many do not understand is that Jesus came to bring back honor to the law of God. The Pharisees boasted in their keeping of the law but remember that Jesus said that were as "whited wall" outwardly righteous but inwardly full of corruption. Jesus came - one reason was to restore the law to its rightful place. Love was ALWAYS the foundation of the law, but remember that He said:

    Mt:23:23: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    Jesus said, do the "Letter of the Law" yes, but also do the mercy/love side of the law. Or else you are not really KEEPING the Law at all.


    Isa:42:21: The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

    Read thism though you have read it before, and think about what Jesus is really saying...is He saying that He is doing away with the Law?


    Matthew 5:
    17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    21: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
    23: Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
    24: Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
    25: Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
    26: Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
    27: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
    28: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


    No, Jesus is not telling us that He was doing away with the Law, rather, He was saying that "except your righteousness shall EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

    In other words, you must not ONLY keep the letter of the law but you must ALSO keep the "spirit" of the Law, which is and always was... LOVE. On these two commandments, love God and love thy neighbor... HANG THE WHOLE LAW.

    Dont just refrain from killing your neighbor... actually LOVE your neighbor! Dont just refrain from outwardly physically committing adultery with a woman, actually dont even fantasize about doing it in your heart!

    Jer:31:33: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Heb:8:10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    Heb:10:16: This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them


    Because the Law is to now be written on your heart, does not mean it is permissible now to kill, to steal, to worship idols, to bow to graven images, to covet your neighbor's goods, etc...


    Read this too, the Sabbath is a good example of how Jesus didnt go around breaking the Law, rather, He demonstrated how God intended it be kept in the first place:

    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/thesabbath.htm

    I hope this all makes sense to you [​IMG]

    [ July 02, 2005, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
  15. Bro. James Reed

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    You like to write, don't you Claudia? :D

    Jesus fulfilled the law because we are unable to do so.

    Still, that does not excuse us from following it to the best of our ability.

    The sinlessness needed for us to be saved eternally has already been done by Christ, but we are still punished on this earth when we disobey God's commandments.

    The problem I see is, some people overemphasize the 10 Commandments and some people don't ephasize them at all. There is a place in between that should be where we are.

    There is nothing wrong with a little works preaching, but I would never want for that to overshadow the grace that has been given to us.

    Bottom line, the 10 Commandments are still to be followed today, but Christ emphasized only 2 to show that love was the most important commandment. When we love God and our neighbor, the other 8 are a piece of cake.

    It's 4am. I'm tired. Goodnight. [​IMG]
     
  16. hillclimber

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    Originally posted by Claudia_T:
    It always amazes me how so many Christians today will declare to the world that "they are saved" and thus since under grace, they no longer need to keep the Law of God... the Ten Commandments. This hideous error is preached from Christian pulpits across the land.

    I don't think it is so widespread as that. The apostle Paul restates all the commandments but the keeping of the Sabbath, for us today.

    Yet then they wonder why it is that the morals in the United States are so corrupt. Too many Christians who claim "works don't matter" and keeping the law of God is "obsolete" do not want to lead by example and are horrified that there are so many abortions and so much homosexuality.

    These are people that live in glass houses and at best are baby Christians.

    It is easy to gravitate to those two sins... abortion and homosexuality, because those are the two that most Christians do not fall into and thus they can condemn it without worry. But when their own sins are pointed out they cry "I am under grace! Don’t be legalistic!" The very ones who reach for the legal system to enforce their doctrines on others.

    A very cynical view, and again not mature Christianity.

    Then while on the one hand they don’t keep the law of God or preach it themselves, they turn around and will denounce the lack of morals in our country and seek to legislate morality and to try to bring others into line, morally, by the use of force. I don’t remember Jesus getting involved in politics, though there were abuses of all sorts in his day. He said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

    Just plain wrong application of scripture. His Kingdom being not of this world, took nothing away from His offering it to Israel. The legislation of morality is the means by which our Christian principals are administrated. For instance, we fight for legislation against the immoral act of abortion.

    Why is it that when it comes to the two sins, Homosexuality and Abortion, all of a sudden, everyone seems to know what "sin" is (transgression of the law IJohn 3:4) ...and that is condemned by God and that people who practice it are "going to Hell"?

    By everyone I assume you mean the saved. The truths is we sin against God every day and break most if not all the commandments every day. And thus everyone that practices sin is "going to hell" apart from Christ’s redemption. And that is the very reason for the ten commandments in the first place. To convict Israel, and by extension, all mankind, of sin.
     
  17. hillclimber

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    We are quick to point out the sin of abortion, as Claudia said, and by our lack of compassion we allow women, and there are lots of them, to suffer whole lifetimes of guilt. Guilt so deep that satan uses it to convince them that God couldn't possibly forgive them. I've been made aware of this, and it is very serious. I know James Dobson has touched on this subject before but not very deeply.

    Christ finished work on the Cross, covers these women's sins and leaves them clean as snow, if they were just made aware and availed themselves of it. That is not to say that they would not continue to suffer some regret and such as is a natural consequence. But being right before God should comfort them immeasurably, and allow fellowship with Him.
     
  18. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    Hi, I just had a minute and wanted to add something to what I had said earlier here about the law of God and the fact that some Christians believe that it has been done away and that now all we have to do is have love.

    As I said before, Bible prophecy says this of Jesus who was to come:

    Isa:42:21: The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

    At the time of Christ, the darkness of misunderstanding of God was enshrouding the world. Men had lost their knowledge of His character. The Religious leaders gave the world a false impression of God's character by adding all sorts of exacting rules and regulations that God never intended. They presented a false protrayal of God the Father to the world.

    "Behold," said Moses, "I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon Him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?" Deut. 4:5-8.


    But although Israel were called to be a light to the world, they resisted Heaven's grace, abused their privileges, and slighted their opportunities. Instead of instructing those in the world around them by example about the God of Abraham, His chosen people fell into the idolatrous practices of the surrounding nations. Rather than the Church leading the world to God, the world led them instead into the ways of the heathen!


    By truly keeping God's law, His people were to show the world the loving character of their Creator. But they failed. Then God sent His Son Jesus to show what God was like all along...


    "Behold," says the Scripture, "the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee." Isa. 60:2.

    Unfortunately, not only did Satan lead the world captive in the past, but his deceptions are leavening the professed churches of our Lord Jesus Christ even in our day!

    By giving people the impression that God's Ten Commandments were impossible to be kept, that God was a hard and exacting tyrannical Ruler, but that Jesus His Son "the loving and kind one" came here to obliterate God's Law and to tell us we no longer have to keep it, but now all we have to do is to "have love" ... they are virtually seconding the lie that Satan has told about God all along!

    But didnt Jesus tell us that when we see Him, we see the character of the Father?

    Jn:14:7: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

    Jn:14:9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

    It is not as though God were the "cruel and heartless one" but Jesus the "kind one" came and offered to die for us to appease a harsh and unloving Father. The truth is:

    2Cor:5:19: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself


    2Cor:4:6: For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


    "Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked Jesus a question, saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:36-40 The reason that Jesus said, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" is because the first 4 commandments define love to God (Thou shalt have no other gods before me, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, etc.) and the last 6 define love to thy neighbor (Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal).

    This was not some "new thought" or a really new commandment that Jesus gave, but to the people in His day, it WAS something new, for they had wandered so far away from God that they didnt even recognize Him in His Son. As I said before, Jesus merely was quoting from the Old Testament and re-stating what the foundation of the Ten Commmandment Law has ALWAYS been:

    "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4,5.

    "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18.


    1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    1Jn:2:7: Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

    1Jn:2:8: Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.


    Romans 13:
    8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    That of course doesnt mean if we have love then its permissible now to steal or to kill or to commit adultery or to bow to idols, and so on.


    1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


    Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    1Jn:3:6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

    Of course we will occasionally fall and so forth, but this idea that God doesnt expect for us to keep His Law anymore is just not biblical.


    Well Ive got to go, theres a storm outside and I need to turn my computer off. God Bless and I hope people here can understand what I am trying to say.
     
  19. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    I have a minute still hopefully, it stopped doing the "lightning" thing outside... I glanced up and saw the comment about abortion and people being so harsh with women who do that... etc...

    I just want to say of course I dont agree that abortion is allright to do, it is terrible. HOWEVER. let me tell you something...

    Many Christians have not repented of THEIR OWN SINS... which in God's eyes might be even worse.

    Just keep in mind what Jesus said... you know, we as Christians have had much light given to us, and some have not... God judges us on the light we have, and He might just look upon some of us as worse than those "sodomites"... Sin is sin.


    Matthew 11:
    20: Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
    21: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
    22: But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
    23: And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
    24: But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
     
  20. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    I had noticed someone here brought up the woman who the leaders wanted to stone because of her sin of adultery. Didnt get to read it because Im turning my computer off and back on again but Im just guessing what it probably was about. (their post, I mean). Usually people use that particular story as "proof" that again- God is the mean one and Jesus was the nice one... Here is a chapter from a book I'd like you to read about that story.... and now I really do need to go... last time I left my computer on during a storm I couldnt use my keyboard after that...anyway please read [​IMG]


    Among Snares

    ALL the while Jesus was at Jerusalem during the feast He was shadowed by spies. Day after day new schemes to silence Him were tried. The priests and rulers were watching to entrap Him. They were planning to stop Him by violence. But this was not all. They wanted to humble this Galilean rabbi before the people.

    On the first day of His presence at the feast, the rulers had come to Him, demanding by what authority He taught. They wished to divert attention from Him to the question of His right to teach, and thus to their own importance and authority.

    "My teaching is not Mine," said Jesus, "but His that sent Me. If any man willeth to do His will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it be of God, or whether I speak from Myself." John 7:16, 17, R. V. The question of these cavilers Jesus met, not by answering the cavil, but by opening up truth vital to the salvation of the soul. The perception and appreciation of truth, He said, depends less upon the mind than upon the heart. Truth must be received into the soul; it claims the homage of the will. If truth could be submitted to the reason alone, pride would be no hindrance in the way of its reception. But it is to be received through the work of grace in the heart; and its reception depends upon the renunciation of every sin that the Spirit of God reveals. Man's advantages for obtaining a knowledge of the truth, however great these may be, will prove of no benefit to him unless the heart is open to receive the truth, and there is a conscientious surrender of every habit and practice that is opposed to its principles. To those who thus yield themselves to God, having an honest desire to know and to do His will, the truth is revealed as the power of God for their salvation. These will be able to distinguish between him who speaks for God, and him who speaks merely from himself. The Pharisees had not put their will on the side of God's will. They were not seeking to know the truth, but to find some excuse for evading it; Christ showed that this was why they did not understand His teaching.

    He now gave a test by which the true teacher might be distinguished from the deceiver: "He that speaketh from himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh the glory of Him that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him." John 7:18, R. V. He that seeketh his own glory is speaking only from himself. The spirit of self-seeking betrays its origin. But Christ was seeking the glory of God. He spoke the words of God. This was the evidence of His authority as a teacher of the truth.

    Jesus gave the rabbis an evidence of His divinity by showing that He read their hearts. Ever since the healing at Bethesda they had been plotting His death. Thus they were themselves breaking the law which they professed to be defending. "Did not Moses give you the law," He said, "and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill Me?"

    Like a swift flash of light these words revealed to the rabbis the pit of ruin into which they were about to plunge. For an instant they were filled with terror. They saw that they were in conflict with Infinite Power. But they would not be warned. In order to maintain their influence with the people, their murderous designs must be concealed. Evading the question of Jesus, they exclaimed, "Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill Thee?" They insinuated that the wonderful works of Jesus were instigated by an evil spirit.

    To this insinuation Christ gave no heed. He went on to show that His work of healing at Bethesda was in harmony with the Sabbath law, and that it was justified by the interpretation which the Jews themselves put upon the law. He said, "Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; . . . and ye on the Sabbath day circumcise a man." According to the law, every child must be circumcised on the eighth day. Should the appointed time fall upon the Sabbath, the rite must then be performed. How much more must it be in harmony with the spirit of the law to make a man "every whit whole on the Sabbath day." And He warned them to "judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

    The rulers were silenced; and many of the people exclaimed, "Is not this He, whom they seek to kill? But, lo, He speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto Him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?"

    Many among Christ's hearers who were dwellers at Jerusalem, and who were not ignorant of the plots of the rulers against Him, felt themselves drawn to Him by an irresistible power. The conviction pressed upon them that He was the Son of God. But Satan was ready to suggest doubt; and for this the way was prepared by their own erroneous ideas of the Messiah and His coming. It was generally believed that Christ would be born at Bethlehem, but that after a time He would disappear, and at His second appearance none would know whence He came. There were not a few who held that the Messiah would have no natural relationship to humanity. And because the popular conception of the glory of the Messiah was not met by Jesus of Nazareth, many gave heed to the suggestion, "Howbeit we know this Man whence He is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence He is."

    While they were thus wavering between doubt and faith, Jesus took up their thoughts and answered them: "Ye both know Me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of Myself, but He that sent Me is true, whom ye know not." They claimed a knowledge of what the origin of Christ should be, but they were in utter ignorance of it. If they had lived in accordance with the will of God, they would have known His Son when He was manifested to them.

    The hearers could not but understand Christ's words. Clearly they were a repetition of the claim He had made in the presence of the Sanhedrin many months before, when He declared Himself the Son of God. As the rulers then tried to compass His death, so now they sought to take Him; but they were prevented by an unseen power, which put a limit to their rage, saying to them, Thus far shalt thou go, and no farther.

    Among the people many believed on Him, and they said, "When Christ cometh, will He do more miracles than these which this Man hath done?" The leaders of the Pharisees, who were anxiously watching the course of events, caught the expressions of sympathy among the throng. Hurrying away to the chief priests, they laid their plans to arrest Him. 458 They arranged, however, to take Him when He was alone; for they dared not seize Him in the presence of the people. Again Jesus made it manifest that He read their purpose. "Yet a little while am I with you," He said, "and then I go unto Him that sent Me. Ye shall seek Me, and shall not find Me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come." Soon He would find a refuge beyond the reach of their scorn and hate. He would ascend to the Father, to be again the Adored of the angels; and thither His murderers could never come.

    Sneeringly the rabbis said, "Whither will He go, that we shall not find Him? will He go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?" Little did these cavilers dream that in their mocking words they were picturing the mission of the Christ! All day long He had stretched forth His hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people; yet He would be found of them that sought Him not; among a people that had not called upon His name He would be manifest. Rom. 10:20, 21.

    Many who were convinced that Jesus was the Son of God were misled by the false reasoning of the priests and rabbis. These teachers had repeated with great effect the prophecies concerning the Messiah, that He would "reign in Mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously;" that He would "have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth." Isa. 24:23; Ps. 72:8. Then they made contemptuous comparisons between the glory here pictured and the humble appearance of Jesus. The very words of prophecy were so perverted as to sanction error. Had the people in sincerity studied the word for themselves, they would not have been misled. The sixty-first chapter of Isaiah testifies that Christ was to do the very work He did. Chapter fifty-three sets forth His rejection and sufferings in the world, and chapter fifty-nine describes the character of the priests and rabbis.

    God does not compel men to give up their unbelief. Before them are light and darkness, truth and error. It is for them to decide which they will accept. The human mind is endowed with power to discriminate between right and wrong. God designs that men shall not decide from impulse, but from weight of evidence, carefully comparing scripture with scripture. Had the Jews laid by their prejudice and compared written prophecy with the facts characterizing the life of Jesus, they would have perceived a beautiful harmony between the prophecies and their fulfillment in the life and ministry of the lowly Galilean.

    Many are deceived today in the same way as were the Jews. Religious teachers read the Bible in the light of their own understanding and traditions; and the people do not search the Scriptures for themselves, and judge for themselves as to what is truth; but they yield up their judgment, and commit their souls to their leaders. The preaching and teaching of His word is one of the means that God has ordained for diffusing light; but we must bring every man's teaching to the test of Scripture. Whoever will prayerfully study the Bible, desiring to know the truth, that he may obey it, will receive divine enlightenment. He will understand the Scriptures. "If any man willeth to do His will, he shall know of the teaching." John 7:17, R. V.

    On the last day of the feast, the officers sent out by the priests and rulers to arrest Jesus, returned without Him. They were angrily questioned, "Why have ye not brought Him?" With solemn countenance they answered, "Never man spake like this Man."

    Hardened as were their hearts, they were melted by His words. While He was speaking in the temple court, they had lingered near, to catch something that might be turned against Him. But as they listened, the purpose for which they had been sent was forgotten. They stood as men entranced. Christ revealed Himself to their souls. They saw that which priests and rulers would not see,--humanity flooded with the glory of divinity. They returned, so filled with this thought, so impressed by His words, that to the inquiry, "Why have ye not brought Him?" they could only reply, "Never man spake like this Man."

    The priests and rulers, on first coming into the presence of Christ, had felt the same conviction. Their hearts were deeply moved, and the thought was forced upon them, "Never man spake like this Man." But they had stifled the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Now, enraged that even the instruments of the law should be influenced by the hated Galilean, they cried, "Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on Him? But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed."

    Those to whom the message of truth is spoken seldom ask, "Is it true?" but, "By whom is it advocated?" Multitudes estimate it by the numbers who accept it; and the question is still asked, "Have any of the learned men or religious leaders believed?" Men are no more favorable to real godliness now than in the days of Christ. They are just as intently seeking earthly good, to the neglect of eternal riches; and it is not an argument against the truth, that large numbers are not ready to accept it, or that it is not received by the world's great men, or even by the religious leaders.

    Again the priests and rulers proceeded to lay plans for arresting Jesus. It was urged that if He were longer left at liberty, He would draw the people away from the established leaders, and the only safe course was to silence Him without delay. In the full tide of their discussion, they were suddenly checked. Nicodemus questioned, "Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?" Silence fell on the assembly. The words of Nicodemus came home to their consciences. They could not condemn a man unheard. But it was not for this reason alone that the haughty rulers remained silent, gazing at him who had dared to speak in favor of justice. They were startled and chagrined that one of their own number had been so far impressed by the character of Jesus as to speak a word in His defense. Recovering from their astonishment, they addressed Nicodemus with cutting sarcasm, "Art thou also of Galilee? Search and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet."

    Yet the protest resulted in staying the proceedings of the council. The rulers were unable to carry out their purpose and condemn Jesus without a hearing. Defeated for the time, "every man went unto his own house. Jesus went unto the Mount of Olives."

    From the excitement and confusion of the city, from the eager crowds and the treacherous rabbis, Jesus turned away to the quiet of the olive groves, where He could be alone with God. But in the early morning He returned to the temple, and as the people gathered about Him, He sat down and taught them.

    He was soon interrupted. A group of Pharisees and scribes approached Him, dragging with them a terror-stricken woman, whom with hard, eager voices they accused of having violated the seventh commandment. Having pushed her into the presence of Jesus, they said to Him, with a hypocritical show of respect, "Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest Thou?"

    Their pretended reverence veiled a deep-laid plot for His ruin. They had seized upon this opportunity to secure His condemnation, thinking that whatever decision He might make, they would find occasion to accuse Him. Should He acquit the woman, He might be charged with despising the law of Moses. Should He declare her worthy of death, He could be accused to the Romans as one who was assuming authority that belonged only to them.

    Jesus looked for a moment upon the scene,--the trembling victim in her shame, the hard-faced dignitaries, devoid of even human pity. His spirit of stainless purity shrank from the spectacle. Well He knew for what purpose this case had been brought to Him. He read the heart, and knew the character and life history of everyone in His presence. These would-be guardians of justice had themselves led their victim into sin, that they might lay a snare for Jesus. Giving no sign that He had heard their question, He stooped, and fixing His eyes upon the ground, began to write in the dust.

    Impatient at His delay and apparent indifference, the accusers drew nearer, urging the matter upon His attention. But as their eyes, following those of Jesus, fell upon the pavement at His feet, their countenances changed. There, traced before them, were the guilty secrets of their own lives. The people, looking on, saw the sudden change of expression, and pressed forward to discover what it was that they were regarding with such astonishment and shame.

    With all their professions of reverence for the law, these rabbis, in bringing the charge against the woman, were disregarding its provisions. It was the husband's duty to take action against her, and the guilty parties were to be punished equally. The action of the accusers was wholly unauthorized. Jesus, however, met them on their own ground. The law specified that in punishment by stoning, the witnesses in the case should be the first to cast a stone. Now rising, and fixing His eyes upon the plotting elders, Jesus said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." And stooping down, He continued writing on the ground.

    He had not set aside the law given through Moses, nor infringed upon the authority of Rome. The accusers had been defeated. Now, their robe of pretended holiness torn from them, they stood, guilty and condemned, in the presence of Infinite Purity. They trembled lest the hidden iniquity of their lives should be laid open to the multitude; and one by one, with bowed heads and downcast eyes, they stole away, leaving their victim with the pitying Saviour.

    Jesus arose, and looking at the woman said, "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

    The woman had stood before Jesus, cowering with fear. His words, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone," had come to her as a death sentence. She dared not lift her eyes to the Saviour's face, but silently awaited her doom. In astonishment she saw her accusers depart speechless and confounded; then those words of hope fell upon her ear, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." Her heart was melted, and she cast herself at the feet of Jesus, sobbing out her grateful love, and with bitter tears confessing her sins.

    This was to her the beginning of a new life, a life of purity and peace, devoted to the service of God. In the uplifting of this fallen soul, Jesus performed a greater miracle than in healing the most grievous physical disease; He cured the spiritual malady which is unto death everlasting. This penitent woman became one of His most steadfast followers. With self-sacrificing love and devotion she repaid His forgiving mercy.

    In His act of pardoning this woman and encouraging her to live a better life, the character of Jesus shines forth in the beauty of perfect righteousness. While He does not palliate sin, nor lessen the sense of guilt, He seeks not to condemn, but to save. The world had for this erring woman only contempt and scorn; but Jesus speaks words of comfort and hope. The Sinless One pities the weakness of the sinner, and reaches to her a helping hand. While the hypocritical Pharisees denounce, Jesus bids her, "Go, and sin no more."

    It is not Christ's follower that, with averted eyes, turns from the erring, leaving them unhindered to pursue their downward course. Those who are forward in accusing others, and zealous in bringing them to justice, are often in their own lives more guilty than they. Men hate the sinner, while they love the sin. Christ hates the sin, but loves the sinner. This will be the spirit of all who follow Him. Christian love is slow to censure, quick to discern penitence, ready to forgive, to encourage, to set the wanderer in the path of holiness, and to stay his feet therein.

    Desire of Ages, Among Snares
     

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