Universal Confession = Universal Salvation?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jacinth, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. Jacinth

    Jacinth
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    Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

    I present before you a simple syllogism, the conclusion of which neccessarily follows from the premises. My challenge to those who are so willing to accept it is to put forth a case for why either of the premises ought to be rejected.

    Premise 1: All human beings who confess (Greek: homologeo) the Lordship of Christ will be saved (Romans 10:9).

    Premise 2: Every human being will confess (Greek: exomologeo) the Lordship of Christ (Philippians 2:11).

    Conclusion: Every human being will be saved.


    Is there a flaw in these premises? Am I equivocating on the word "confess"?

    I look forward to your responses.

    In Christ,

    J
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Heb 9 "It is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment"

    James 2 "The devils believe and tremble"

    your quote from Phil 2 is relative to the same event described in Jude where "God convicts the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds" -- an event that takes place in Rev 20 after the literal 1000 years - at the great white throne.

    The books are opened - the dead are judged according to their deeds and thrown into the lake of fire.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Jacinth

    Jacinth
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    Hi Bob,


    Indeed. How does the fact of post-mortem judgment preclude a universal confession unto salvation?

    The sort of belief in view in this verse is irrelevant to the sort of confession in view in Philippians 2:11, for the latter is done unto the glory of God.

    Let's take a closer look.


    Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
    Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


    The Isaiah passage that Paul alludes to is describing this universal confession in the context of salvation, as is evident by considering the parallel structure of the text:


    Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.
    Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


    Bowing to Christ and confessing His Lordship is a salvific event!
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Well I certainly agree with you - that if one takes that view of Isaiah - it is Universalism.

    I don't see it that way. Isaiah is stating two things.

    1. God is the only God, and the only Savior and He is calling ALL of humanity to HIM salvation.

    2. God is stating that in the end ALL will bow the knee to Him - the righteous will cast their crowns at His feet -- the wicked will be convicted "of all their ungodly deeds" and confess that God was right and they are wrong. But this is not "conversion" rather it is admitting to the shear force of the truth in spite of themselves.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Jacinth

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    Hi Bob,

    1. Agreed.

    2. I agree with everything you wrote above, save for the "but this is not conversion" part. I have stated one main reason for disagreeing, but you have not addressed it. Let me slightly expound on what I'd like you to address.

    “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."


    This is a textbook example of a synonymous parallelism. "All the ends of the earth" corresponds to "every knee/tongue" and salvation corresponds to bowing to and confessing the Lordship of Christ.

    Isa 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

    Indeed, salvation is in view!
     
  6. donnA

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    So what your saying is you think everyone is going to heaven, everyone will be saved?
    Every knee bowing every tongue confessing is not salvation of everyone. Mnay will will never beleive and accept who Jesus is until the end, when He returns. At that point it's too late for salvation, salvation is on faith, not on sight. These people will be at the judgement before they admit Jesus really was who we all said He was.
     
  7. Brother Bob

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    The words that I speak, shall judge you in the last day.

    Here is mine.

    BBob,
     
    #7 Brother Bob, Feb 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2008
  8. BobRyan

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    As I stated - this includes both the saved and the unsaved - it does not insist that all who bow must be saved.

    in Matt 7 we are told that NARROW is the way to eternal life and FEW there are that find it --

    There is no question that FEW are saved and the MANY are lost according to Matt 7.

    There is no question that ALL of them will sooner or later bow the knee to Christ -- either those who are standing around the Holy City on the outside in Rev 20 that are "convicted of all their ungodly deeds" or those who are in the inside who "cast their crowns at Jesus' feet". Still ALL will admit to the truth.

    In THIS life we have "if you confess your sins he is faithful and just to FORGIVE your sins" 1John 1:9.

    In the NEXT life we have "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment" Heb 9 end of chapter.
    In the NEXT life we have "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ so that EACH ONE may be recompessed for his deeds whether they be good or EVIL" 2Cor 5.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #8 BobRyan, Feb 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2008
  9. Jacinth

    Jacinth
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    Hi donnA,

    I think that Philippians 2:11 might indeed be teaching this, yes.

    Can you address my reason for suggesting otherwise?

    What makes you think that it is no longer a matter of faith at that point? Paul saw the risen Jesus and still was able to believe, right? Besides, faith is simply trusting in and surrending to God. Why would that be impossible after death?
     
  10. Jacinth

    Jacinth
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    Brother Bob,

    What do you mean by "should confess"?


    Why do you say that salvation is not in view here?

    But what of that argument I have put forth? TYhe Isaiah passage that Paul alludes to is clearly talking about salvation. I'd like to see that addressed.
     
  11. Jacinth

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    BobRyan,

    Your statement does not take into account the salvific context of Isaiah 45.


    This verse does not include the qualifier you are attaching to it. Neither, for that matter, does Romans 10:9 give any indication that this truth is not applicable after death.

    Again I ask, how does the fact of post-mortem judgment preclude a universal confession unto salvation?


    Agreed.
     
  12. donnA

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    You what your saying goes against recognized christian doctrines. God isn't going to reveal some new teaching from scripture thats never been seen, understood, known about or taught before.
     
  13. Jacinth

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    There is nothing new about the doctrine of Universal Salvation. It goes way back. But if you do not want to discuss it, that's fine. Thanks for stopping by.
     
  14. Brother Bob

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    Isa 45:23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Jhn 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Rev 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    I see it as His words are not in vain, but will accomplish wherein He chooses to send it, and it is to go into the whole world and all men will be judged by His word, whether it be good or bad.

    BBob
     
    #14 Brother Bob, Feb 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2008
  15. donnA

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    What I mean by new is it's not in the bible.
     
  16. Jacinth

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    Brother Bob,

    I agree, but there is more to it, and I've laid down a case for why. Could you please address my case?
     
  17. Jacinth

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    That's your position. I'm here to discuss the verses that I consider to be possible evidence that Universal Salvation is indeed taught in the Bible. I have given one peice of evidence already. Would you like to address it?
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    Let me try one more time:

    Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
    Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    The Isaiah passage that Paul alludes to is describing this universal confession in the context of salvation, as is evident by considering the parallel structure of the text:

    I do not see this as a universal confession, but where all men should confess, we know they do not. Also, scripture teaches us they do not.
    Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.
    Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
    I see here the word going out and to some it is salvation and to others it is condemnation.

    Jam 1:23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

    Jam 1:24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

    Then there is the doer:

    Jam 1:25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    They both hear the same word, but one is a doer and the other is not. The word went out to either save or condemn. There is a little thing called "belief" on our part, that must take place.

    One is saved, the other lost.

    I tried to address what you asked, I hope I did, but not sure. Sometimes its hard to see the exact point a brother is making, and I am not of the brightest on here.

    Even the soldier that pierced Him in the side, confessed and that was just a sample of what the end will be like.

    Not after Mercy ceases it is not, for they all shall confess He is the Christ but to some He will say, depart for I never knew you. Everyone will confess He is the Christ in the end, for there will be no denying it when He comes in the cloud of Glory.

    BBob,
     
    #18 Brother Bob, Feb 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2008
  19. donnA

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    I thought I had, let me give it another try,

    1. MISINTERPETATION
     
  20. Jacinth

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    Brother Bob,


    So every tongue/knee is not a reference to everyone? Why do you say that?

    I'm not sure what you're saying here.

    I fail to see how damnation is at odds with eventual salvation.

    Where do you see anything about condemnation in this passage? To the contrary, salvation is in view as I've already shown. Why, according to your reading, does Isaiah mention salvation and confession in the same breath?

    I agree, but how is any of this at odds with a final and universal confession?

    Lost forever?
     

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