Universal Salvation?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, May 3, 2005.

  1. icthus

    icthus
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    Here is a classic text from Romans, that "seems" to teach "Universal Salvation"

    "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous" 5:19

    For those who know Greek, you will see this verse in your GNT's, where the same phrase is used twice, "hoi polloi" (many), literally "the many".
    With the definite article (hoi), it bears the meaning "the majority, the greatest number". Here, it is clear from its first use, "many were made sinners", can only mean the whole human race in Adam. How about the second use, "many will be made righteous"? Its exactly the same in the Greek, but what does it say?

    I do NOT believe in Universal Salvation, but Universal Atonement. But, how do you answer this verse?
     
  2. whatever

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    As those who are in Adam were made sinners, those who are in Christ will be made righteous.
     
  3. Bob Krajcik

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    Caveat: While I myself do not understand the atonement to be universal. . . perhaps it will help you by seeing it from a different perspective. I am helped to understand Romans 5:19, by considering the following. . .

    Propitiation refers to that by which God’s wrath is assuaged, i.e., by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation is not what procures God’s love or makes him loving, but it renders it consistent for God to exercise his love towards sinners, for the debt of His wrath has been satisfied. Christ Jesus whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood is all that is needed for propitiation in behalf of our sins, the propitiatory sacrifice provided by the Father's love removing the separation, appeasing God's righteous wrath against the sinner. God's justice demands propitiation, for our iniquities separate men from God and therefore demand the wages of sin. The Holy Ghost quickens those Christ died for, and Christ died for those the Father gave Him.

    Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    There is a universalists position some hold, regarding their belief that Christ Jesus is propitiation through faith in His blood for each and every person without exception, but I reject that universalists position. Christ Jesus is propitiation through faith in His blood, but not all have faith. Faith is obtained when we are saved.

    2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

    2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

    http://www.bright.net/~bkrajcik/propitiation.htm
     
  4. russell55

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    I agree with whatever and offer this text from 1 Corinthians 15 as a bit of explanation for how Paul uses the "in Adam-in Christ" parallel:
    You'll see that the all in Christ is a different group than the all in Adam. Christ's "all" includes only those who "belong to him".

    This is probably the same way Paul uses the idea in Romans 5 as well.
     
  5. icthus

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    You'll see that the all in Christ is a different group than the all in Adam. Christ's "all" includes only those who "belong to him".

    This is probably the same way Paul uses the idea in Romans 5 as well.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I know what Paul says in 1 Corinthians. However, this is NOT what he is saying here in Romans. The language does not speak about neing "in adam" and "in Christ". He clearly states that as by the sin of Adam, "the many" became lost; whereas by Jesus' life, "the many" will be righteous.

    My OP asks about the Greek language, which shows (or does it?) that the two exact phrases mean the same. How would you answer someone who believed in Universalsim, who brought this verse to you? I know that you can show from other Scriptures, that only a few will be saved, but this text needs to be addressed on its own merits.
     
  6. whatever

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    I'd ask them to read the whole book. Verse 19 is the conclusion of the argument Paul is making, and if we look at the conclusion without seeing how he got there then it would be easy to assign to it a meaning that Paul never intended.

    It is easy to see how everyone is represented by Adam, because as a result of Adam's sin we all sin too (v. 12).

    In verse 17 Paul makes clear that, as death reigns in all who sin because of one man's sin, so those who receive Christ will reign in life because of Christ's righteousness.

    This is why we say that while the Greek is the same, the two groups of "many" are different groups - those who are "in Adam" (those who died because of his trespass), and those who are alive "in Christ" (those who reign in life because of Christ's righteousness). He doesn't use "many" to limit the number to "not everybody", as we might use the word, because he also uses "all" in other verses. He uses "many" to show that it is a large number of people, not just a handful, who are where we are because of what others did. He is pointing out that this is the general rule, and not a special case.
     
  7. icthus

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    I'd ask them to read the whole book. Verse 19 is the conclusion of the argument Paul is making, and if we look at the conclusion without seeing how he got there then it would be easy to assign to it a meaning that Paul never intended.

    It is easy to see how everyone is represented by Adam, because as a result of Adam's sin we all sin too (v. 12).

    In verse 17 Paul makes clear that, as death reigns in all who sin because of one man's sin, so those who receive Christ will reign in life because of Christ's righteousness.

    This is why we say that while the Greek is the same, the two groups of "many" are different groups - those who are "in Adam" (those who died because of his trespass), and those who are alive "in Christ" (those who reign in life because of Christ's righteousness). He doesn't use "many" to limit the number to "not everybody", as we might use the word, because he also uses "all" in other verses. He uses "many" to show that it is a large number of people, not just a handful, who are where we are because of what others did. He is pointing out that this is the general rule, and not a special case.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You failed to see my point. If by "the many" in the first instance of the term, Paul means "everyone", that is the "human race" that died in Adam. Does the secone use of the second use of the same term in the Greek and English have the same meaning as the first? If not, then, why not?

    If as you say that by "the many" Paul means " large number of people", does then then mean that not "everyone" did fall in Adam?
     
  8. johnp.

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    Hello icthus.

    The many in Adam that became sinners was not the whole of humanity because Jesus is not included in the fall.

    Hoi Polloi means man therefore universal salvation is not supported with this verse.

    When I am lifted up I will draw all men... But the all men does not mean all men otherwise Jesus would draw Himself. Limited Atonement is proved by these verses.

    Whatcha think? :cool:

    johnp.
     
  9. russell55

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    No, but they are both passages that have Adam as a TYPE of Christ, and both seem to be making a somewhat similar point: what each man has done affects certain other people, so I do think we can look at all the Adam/Christ passages to help us find the exact boundaries of the groups.

    I don't think the language itself tells you whether they have the same meaning or not. The person who told you that because they both say "the many" they have to be the exact same group is overstating his case.

    I think I would say that just as one defines "many" who were made sinners contextually (by looking at verses 12-14, which is pretty specific about no person being excluded), so too would you define the " many" made righteous contextually (by looking at verse 17 where it say its "those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness.)

    It's a difficult passage, though, not only with the "the many"- "the all" thing, but it's difficult to follow Paul's thought exactly down through 5:12-20. That's the reason your friend's chosen THIS passage to stump you. It's an easy one to muddle things up with.

    But the bottom line is that there's nothing in the language that restricts the meaning of "many" or "the many" to being the exact same group.
     
  10. whatever

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    You failed to see my point. The context will not allow that interpretation.

    That is why 1 Cor. 15:22 is germane to the discussion:

    "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

    Same Greek word ("pas"), same English word ("all"), two different groups, no problem.
     
  11. icthus

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    No, I am not at all "stumped" by this passage, as I know exactly what Paul means here.

    While in the first use "hoi polloi", does indeed mean the whole human race, since we are all sinners. However, though the Greek in its second use is identical to the first use, yet this is done by grammatical design, but does not mean the same.

    You see, in both cases as I have shown, the Greek "polus", is used with the definite article (hoi). In the first case it would indeed refer to "the mass of mankind". The second use of the Greek article is for pure grammatical purposes only. Here the Greek article (hoi) is used for "renewed mention". That is, when a word is used an additional time in a text or passage, the subsequent uses would take the article, to refer it back to its previous use. In reality, "many" in the second use is without the article, which would not make its meaning equal to the first time.
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    So you believe that righteous people go to hell?
     
  13. icthus

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    Where do you get this from? :rolleyes:
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    Your argument here. YOu say that the many who were made sinners by Adam were made righteous by Christ. Do "the many" go to heaven or hell?

    Why roll your eyes?
     
  15. icthus

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    I roll my eyes because you get something from me that I am not saying.

    Did you read my last post here, where i explain that the Greek does not have to be taken in the same sense in both places? Research has shown me that no "universal salvation" can be claimed from this verse. Get it? :D
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    The passage is about headship, the headship of Adam and the headship of Christ. No universal salvation can be claimed from this verse. The passage teaches that just as all or the many were made sinners in Adam, so all or the many are made righteous in Christ. The key phrase is in Adam and in Christ.

    You are really reaching ...
     
  17. icthus

    icthus
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    "You are really reaching", yeh, for the day of glory! :D
     
  18. ituttut

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    I believe as the Word informs. Perhaps Williams New Testament may answer your question, for Williams looks to how the Greek thought in those days, and not just a word. Romans 5:19, ”For just as by that man's disobedience the whole race of men were constituted sinners, so by this One's obedience the whole race of men may be brought into right standing with God.” I do not believe the Bible contradicts.

    I am not here saying those that love the words to translate for our understanding do any wrong, but to only say God is not at variance with Himself. The linguist (translator) must know the mind of the language to understand the meaning of not just the words, but the thoughts.

    If some cannot ascribe to Williams translation, then we should let stand a reliable version such as ASV of the same verse. ”For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.” I can see that many were made sinners as they refused to believe God. Also many believe God, but many do not. Christian faith, ituttut
     

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