Universalism compared to Arminianism in ONE area

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by agedman, Sep 3, 2013.

  1. agedman

    agedman
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    Theme: Difference between universalism and arminianism (or non-Cal for a more inclusive grouping).

    I realize that there are differences -belief in eternal hell is one - but, for this thread, I propose staying with one area.

    These verses (copied from wikipedia) to demonstrate what universalists hold as showing that none will perish.


      1. 1 Corinthians 15:22
        • "For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive." (ESV; Emphasis Added)
      2. Romans 5:18-19 (The "one trespass" and the "one man's disobedience" refer to Adam's sin, while the "act of righteousness" and the "one man's obedience" refer to Jesus' voluntary death on the cross).
        • "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." (ESV; Emphasis added)
      3. 2 Peter 3:9
        • "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (ESV; Emphasis Added)
      4. 1 Timothy 2:3-6
        • "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time." (ESV; Emphasis Added)
      5. 1 John 2:2
        • "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." (ESV)
      6. 1 Timothy 4:10
        • "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe." (ESV; Emphasis Added)
      7. Romans 11:32
        • "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." (ESV)
      8. 1 John 4:14
        • "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." (ESV)
    So, the question considers the use of "ALL."

    Why is it that the Arminianist (non-cal) thinking is not considered the same as Universalist thinking?

    Is the "ALL" of Arminianists (non-cal) in fact "limited" or is it "unlimited?"

    If not, what use of the word "ALL" does not conform to agreement between the two views.

    PLEASE: Folks this is not some Cal. vs Arminian debate!

    This is Arminian vs Universal discussion of the use of the word "ALL."
     
  2. Winman

    Winman
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    I can only answer for myself, as I am not Arminian, and I am not quite your ordinary "non-Cal" either.

    Each of these scriptures has to be addressed separately.

    1.

    1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    This verse is speaking of physical death only, not spiritual, as the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians is speaking of the resurrection of our physical bodies. All persons shall be raised physically from the dead, some to the resurrection of life, some unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    2.

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    I understand "all" in verse 18 to mean 100% of men, but it must be understood that I believe both the condemnation and righteousness spoken of are CONDITIONAL. This is very important to understand my personal view. I believe that by Adam's offence judgment came upon 100% of men who CONDITIONALLY (willingly and knowingly) disobey God as Adam did. I do not believe a baby or a severely mentally handicapped person can commit this sin. Likewise, righteousness comes upon 100% of men who CONDITIONALLY believe in Jesus as Jesus believed on his Father on the cross.

    Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    I understand "many" in verse 19 to mean exactly what it says, "many". As a baby or a mentally handicapped person cannot understand right from wrong, they cannot be made a sinner. So only many are made sinners through willful and knowing disobedience. Likewise, only those who conditionally obey the gospel can be made righteous, so only many can be made righteous, not all.

    3.

    2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    I believe "any" and "all" mean 100% of men in this verse. I believe the scriptures show that God can be grieved or frustrated, and that his will is not always done.

    Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    Jesus WOULD have saved all the children of Jerusalem, but they WOULD NOT come to him.

    4.

    1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    I believe "all" here means 100% of men, but you must receive this payment by faith.

    Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    5., 6.

    I would give the same answer for 1 John 2:2 and 1 Tim 4:10, Jesus is the propitiation and Saviour of all men, but you must receive him by faith.

    7.

    Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    I believe this applies to all men who are accountable. I do not believe babies or severely mentally handicapped people are able to understand right from wrong and are therefore not accountable.

    Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

    Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

    Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    Jon 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

    Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

    I believe babies are born upright, and do not become accountable until they are mature enough to understand right from wrong.

    8.

    1 Jhn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

    I believe "world" here means 100% of all men, but men must willingly accept Jesus of their own free will. God does not force or compel any man to accept Jesus.

    This is my personal view, it is probably a little different from most.
     
  3. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    The desire of God is all to be saved. The limit to all is to come if they do not come to Christ to be in Christ they will not be saved.

    The desire for all to be saved and will are two different things. Universalist believe all will come the condemnation is a temporary one, eventually all will come. Arminist do not believe all will come but believe God does want all men to be saved. The will of God is different from the desire of God. The all is just a desire. Universalist is more like cals is just that since men can't save themselves God will save all men because God gets what He wants non cals don't believe God gets what He wants but what He will that only those who come to Christ will be saved but not all will come.

    I believe we have to deny our will and to be given a new will from God. If we do not listen and learn we will never come or be given a new will. No matter how hard you try if they don't listen and learn from God they will not come.
     
    #3 psalms109:31, Sep 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 3, 2013
  4. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
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    Now, this is how I expect a thread to develop.
     
  5. AresMan

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    I would say that this verse is speaking federal headship. It is not saying that the same number who participate "in Adam" also participate "in Christ." It is saying that all who are in Adam will die, but all who are in Christ will be made alive.
     
  6. Winman

    Winman
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    I believe it is speaking of 100% of men, but it is speaking of physical death only, not spiritual death. If it were speaking of spiritual death, then it would refute Original Sin, because it says in Adam all "die" (future tense). Original Sin teaches that all men are born spiritually dead, separated from God from conception.

    But... it is not speaking of spiritual death whatsoever. All you have to do is read the entire 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians and it is easy to see this chapter is dealing with the subject of the resurrection of our physical bodies, not our souls.

    1 Cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

    This cannot be speaking of the spiritually dead, it must be speaking of physical death.

    1 Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

    Physical resurrection.

    So those who use this verse as a proof-text for Total Inability are in error. It is not teaching that all men are born spiritually dead whatsoever. It is teaching that all men must physically die. This is why babies die physically.

    We are all "in Adam" physically, we are all physical descendants of Adam, and all men physically die. And all men shall be made physically alive at the resurrection, the saved will be resurrected to life, the unsaved will be resurrected to damnation which is the second death.

    1 Cor 15:22 is one of the most misused and misinterpreted verses in all of scripture.
     

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