Universalism

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Yelsew, May 24, 2003.

  1. Yelsew

    Yelsew
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    GH presented the following scriptures and comments in support of Universalism. Do you find, in light of all the scriptures, that these scriptures support universalism when in their proper context?

    Gen 12:3 And in you [Abraham] all the families of the earth will be blessed. [This is the original and foundational promise made by God, revealing His redemptive purpose and plan for all of mankind. (Note in the following passages the connection between "all the families", "all the nations", "all the peoples", "all the proud of the earth", "all the kingdoms", "all the earth", etc.) Every promise, covenant, and provision given by God, including the law, the prophets,the priesthood, the church, and above all the Messiah (ie, "Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham," - Mt 1:1), point to and are the direct fulfillment of this one original promise given to Abraham. Thus Paul refers to him as "...the father of us all." - Rom 4:16]

    Gen 22:18 And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice. [This promise is repeated over and over throughout scripture.]

    Num 14:20 So the Lord said [speaking to Moses, who is a foretype of Christ as our intercessor], "I have pardoned them according to your word; but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord."

    II Sam14:14 For we shall surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one may not be cast out from him.

    I Kings 8:43 Hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to Thee, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know Thy name, to fear Thee, as do Thy people Israel, and that they may know that this house which I [Solomon] have built is called by Thy name.

    I Kings 8:60 So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no one else.

    II Kings19:19 That all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone, O Lord, art God.

    I Chron 16:34 O give thanks to the Lord, for He is good; For His mercy (lovingkindness, NAS) endureth forever.

    II Chron 20;21 Give thanks to the Lord, for His mercy endureth forever. [This theme is repeated over and over throughout scripture.]

    Ps 9:7-8 But the Lord abides forever; He has established His throne for judgment, and He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute (minister, KJ) judgment for [not against] the peoples with equity.

    Ps 22:27-30 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before Thee. For the kingdom is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations. All the proud [literally, "fat ones"] of the earth will eat and worship, even he who cannot keep his soul alive. Posterity will serve Him.

    Ps 30:5 For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, but a shout of joy comes in the morning.

    Ps 33:8 Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

    Ps 46:10 Cease striving [be still] and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations; I will be exalted in the earth.

    Ps 65:2,5 To Thee all men [lit. all flesh] come...Thou who art the trust of all the ends of the earth and of the farthest sea.

    Ps 66:1,4 Shout joyfully to God, all the earth...All the earth will worship Thee, and will sing praises to Thee; they will sing praises to Thy name.

    Ps 67:1-7 God be gracious to us and bless us, and cause His face to shine upon us, that Thy way may be known on the earth, Thy salvation among all nations...Let all the peoples praise Thee. Let the nations be glad...for Thou wilt judge the peoples with uprightness, and guide the nations on the earth...that all the ends of the earth may fear Him.

    Ps 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captive [capture in order to set free] Thy captives; Thou hast given gifts among men, even among the rebellious also, that the Lord God may dwell there.

    Ps 69:34 Let heaven and earth praise Him, the seas and everything that moves in them.

    Ps 72:8-19 May He also rule from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth...and let all kings bow down before Him, all nations serve Him...Let all nations call Him blessed...And may the whole earth be filled with His glory. Amen and Amen.

    Ps 86:9 All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord; And they shall glorify Thy name.

    Ps 96:1-12 Sing to the Lord, all the earth...His wonderful deeds among all the peoples...Tremble before Him, all the earth...Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy before the Lord, for He is coming...

    Ps 98:3,4 All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth; break forth and sing for joy and sing praises.

    Ps 145:9-10 The Lord is good to all, and His mercies are over all His works. All Thy works shall give thanks to Thee, O Lord, and Thy godly ones shall bless Thee.

    Ps 145:14-16 The Lord sustains all who fall, and raises up all who are bowed down. The eyes of all look to Thee, and Thou dost give them their food in due time. Thou dost open Thy hand, and dost satisfy the desire of every living thing.

    Ps 145:21 And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.

    Ps 150:6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord!

    Is 19:21 Thus the Lord will make Himself known to Egypt and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day. They will even worship with sacrifice and offering, and will make a vow to the Lord and perform it.

    Is 19:22 And the Lord will strike Egypt, striking but healing; so they will return to the Lord, and He will respond to them and will heal them.

    Is 25:6-8 And the Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain [Mount Zion]...and on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations. He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces.

    Is 26:9 For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

    Is 40:5 Then the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

    Is 45:22-23 Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

    Is 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.

    Is 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory.

    Is 66:23 All mankind will come to bow down before Me, says the Lord.

    Lam 3:31-32 For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant lovingkindness.

    Daniel 7:27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.

    Micah 4:6-7 "In that day," declares the Lord, "I will assemble the lame, and gather the outcasts, even those whom I have afflicted. I will make the lame a remnant, and the outcasts a strong nation, and the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever.

    Micah 7:18-19 Who is a God like Thee, who pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in unchanging love. He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities underfoot. Yes, Thou wilt cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.

    Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

    Zeph 2:11 The Lord will be terrifying to them, for He will starve all the gods of the earth; and all the coastlands of the nations will bow down to Him, every one from his own place.

    Zeph 3:8-9 Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out on them My indignation, all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call on the name of the Lord, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder.

    Hag 2:6-9 For thus says the Lord of hosts, "Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land. And I will shake all the nations; and they will come [or, the Desire of all nations will come] with the wealth of the nations; and I will fill this house with glory," says the Lord of hosts. "The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine," declares the Lord of hosts. "The latter glory of this house will be greater than the former," says the Lord of hosts, "and in this place I shall give peace," declares the Lord of hosts.

    Zech 2:10-11 Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst, declares the Lord. And many nations will join themselves to the Lord in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.

    Zech 9:10 And He will speak peace to the nations; and His dominion will be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

    Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the Lord of hosts.

    Mal 2:10 Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us? Mt 18:12,14 What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? Thus it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

    Lk 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which shall be for all the people."

    Lk 15:4-7 What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when [not if] he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing... I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

    Lk 23:34 Jesus said, "Father forgive them; they know not what they do." [This incredible request by Jesus, together with His suffering and death on the cross for the sins of the world, becomes the ultimate picture and the eternal symbol of the heart and intention of God toward lost humanity. Furthermore, this declaration of God's ultimate redemptive purposes was made, eternally speaking, from the beginning of time, by "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world"! (Rev 13:8)]

    Jn 1:29 The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" ["the sin" is in the singular, indicating the complete removal of the "sin principle", or sin itself with all of its consequences, not just the individual acts of sin.]

    Jn 3:17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him.

    Jn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. [This is as clear a statement on the subject as any in scripture, a promise made by Christ Himself!]

    Acts 3;20-21 And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

    Rom 5:18-20 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous. And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more!

    Rom 8:19-21 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    Rom 11:15 For if their rejection [the Jew's rejection of Christ] be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

    Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved.

    Rom 11:32,33 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all. Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

    Rom 11;36 For from Him [Christ] and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

    Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

    Rom 14:11 For as it is written, "As I live", says the Lord, "every knee shall bow to me [repentance], and every tongue shall give praise to God". [worship]

    I Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

    I Cor 5:4,5 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [See I Peter 4:6!]

    I Cor 13:8 Love never fails. ["Love never fails!" God is love. His love can not fail! To lose even one would mean that love failed to find and save that one. To lose millions for eternity, as some believe, would mean that love failed miserably and completely! However, His plan, His purpose, His desire, and His nature has always been and always will be love for His creation!]

    I Cor 15:22,28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order... "And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all."

    I Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." ["The last enemy to be destroyed is death" (I Cor 15:26)...This refers to all death, both physical death and spiritual death. Then the only thing that shall remain is...Life!]

    II Cor 5:14,15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

    II Cor 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was [and is] in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

    Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

    Eph 1:9,10 He make known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ,
    things in the heavens and things upon the earth.

    Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.

    Eph 3:8-11 To me [Paul]...this grace was given...to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Eph 4:5,6 There is...one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

    Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.

    Phil 2:9-11 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.["No one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit." I Cor 12:3]

    Phil 3;21 ...who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

    Col 1:19-22 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

    Col 3:11 Christ is all, and in all. [All creation is birthed in Christ; all creation remains in Christ; but not all of creation has been awakened to Christ ("Awake, sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give thee light." Eph 5:14)]

    I Tim 1:13 Even though I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor, yet I was shown mercy, because I acted ignorantly in unbelief. [If the prerequisite for mercy is ignorance and unbelief, then who will fail to qualify?]

    I Tim 1:15 Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I [Paul] am foremost. [Again, if Paul is the foremost sinner, then hasn't God's plan of redemption been accomplished to the foremost?]

    I Tim 2:5,6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to be borne at the proper time.

    I Tim 4:10 It is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

    Heb 1:2 In these last days He has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

    Heb 2:8 For in subjecting all things to him [ie., man], He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him...But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for every one.

    Heb 9:26 But now once at the consummation He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

    I Pet 2:12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

    I Pet 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah...

    I Pet 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that even though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. (see I Cor 5:5)

    II Pet 3:8,9 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing [literally "not purposing", from the Greek: boulema, "predetermined purpose"] that any should perish but for all to come to repentance. [His promise is still the original promise given to Abraham, that ..."in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."]

    I John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation [ie., satisfaction or appeasement] for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

    I John 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

    Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

    Rev 15:3,4 And they sang the song of Moses... and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Thy ways, Thou King of the Nations. Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For all the nations will come and worship before Thee, for Thy righteous acts have been revealed."

    Praise the Lord! \o/ </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  2. Me2

    Me2
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    Hi Yelsew,

    I looked thru most of the NT passages and I agree with GH that they are focusing on the concepts of an Ultimate reconciliation of Mankind and God.

    universal salvation holds to the tenant that an eternal timeframe does not exists for those sent to "hell". that an eventual reunion of Gods creation will be rejoined to its creator..bar none
    (hence, God is all in all)

    (although even within there tenants I myself find fault. I do not believe in an afterlife which contains a "hell". still all are reconciled because of the sacrificial act of Jesus Christ)

    that is a major difference compared to those who hold to a belief in God punishing many eternally. (in "hell") never to return to a "loving" God.

    was there a question that you had in mind concerning some of these passeages?. (and coud you stay in the NT just for simplicity sake.)

    and I do see that many will have a difference in understanding these concepts. even these statements
    that are being discussed. as they are adult concepts and not ones to be understood by children and babies in christ.

    Me2
     
  3. KenH

    KenH
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    Absolutely, without a doubt. Amen and amen. [​IMG]

    Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/
     
  4. Eladar

    Eladar
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    Ken,

    You are saying that you believe in predestined salvation for everyone?

    I guess you learn something new every day.


    My answer to this question is no. Yelsew, you are lucky you got one of GH's shorter posts on the subject.
     
  5. KenH

    KenH
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    Absolutely, without a doubt. Amen and amen. You put it into a very concise statement. Thank you. [​IMG]

    Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/
     
  6. Eladar

    Eladar
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    So Jesus was wrong when he said that few will find the gate that leads to the kingdom of heavean.
     
  7. KenH

    KenH
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    John 1:29 (ESV)
    The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    Sort of hard to be tortured forever and ever and ever and ever and ever... when all sin has been taken away. [​IMG]
     
  8. Yelsew

    Yelsew
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    I'd like to bring up a couple things for the purpose of remembrance.

    Remember that Jesus is the Creator who made the Heaven and earth and all that is in them.
    Remember, John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life!
    Remember: It is the Son of God that told us.

    I find it quite difficult to believe that God, who Gave his only son so that whoseover believeth on him should have EVERLASTING life, would include those who do not believe in him in everlasting life. Can you explain why God would do that?
     
  9. neal4christ

    neal4christ
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    That is why people are not sent to hell for their sin. Christ has taken that away. However, they are sent to hell for rejection of Christ. And it is not torture, it is the result of their choice, eternal separation from God Almighty.

    Praise be to God Almighty for not being a dictator forcing people to receive Him.

    Neal
     
  10. KenH

    KenH
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    So rejecting Christ is not a sin? People are not sent to Hell because of their sin? I bet that's news to a lot of people. [​IMG]

    I can just hear a preacher,

    "Come to Jesus today. But if you don't come to Jesus today I want you to know you are not sinning. But even though you are not sinning by rejecting Jesus, if you don't come to Jesus you will still be tortured forever and ever and ever and ever... in the belly of Hell.

    Oh, by the way, if you have come to Jesus don't worry about how much you sin since your sin can't send you to Hell."

    I just don't think that dog will hunt, Neal. :D

    Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/
     
  11. KenH

    KenH
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    Simple. All will eventually believe in Jesus Who is the Savior of the world.

    1 Peter 4:6 (ESV)
    For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

    Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/
     
  12. KenH

    KenH
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    Jesus is my Lord and He is never, ever wrong. [​IMG]

    Now to answer your question on Matthew 7:14 -

    1)The narrowness of the gate refers to the exclusivity of salvation through Jesus alone.

    2)Jesus is describing the situation as it existed when He spoke and which continued throughout His earthly ministry. There is nothing in the context to indicate it is to be a normative condition throughout human history.

    Daniel 2:35 (ESV)
    Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

    Tbe stone grows into a mountain, filling the whole earth.

    3)Matthew 8:11 (ESV)
    I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,

    So, Tuor, are you saying that Jesus was wrong when He said that many will be in the kingdom of Heaven?

    Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/
     
  13. Yelsew

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    So rejecting Christ is not a sin? People are not sent to Hell because of their sin? I bet that's news to a lot of people. [​IMG]

    I can just hear a preacher,

    "Come to Jesus today. But if you don't come to Jesus today I want you to know you are not sinning. But even though you are not sinning by rejecting Jesus, if you don't come to Jesus you will still be tortured forever and ever and ever and ever... in the belly of Hell.

    Oh, by the way, if you have come to Jesus don't worry about how much you sin since your sin can't send you to Hell."

    I just don't think that dog will hunt, Neal. :D

    Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/
    </font>[/QUOTE]Let's do it again.

    Atonement pays the penalty for Sin.

    Salvation is not of Works

    For by Grace are ye saved through FAITH

    Therefore,
    No judgement for sin, No help from works, that leaves FAITH ALONE!

    If you DON'T Believe in God, especially in His Son, You get eternal punishment!

    If you DO believe in God, and especially in Jesus, you receive Eternal Life.
     
  14. Yelsew

    Yelsew
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    Simple. All will eventually believe in Jesus Who is the Savior of the world.

    1 Peter 4:6 (ESV)
    For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

    Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/
    </font>[/QUOTE]Consider that before Christ, judgment was based on LAW while After Jesus Judgment is based on Faith. Those who lived before Christ did not receive the message of Grace but of Law. Those after Jesus have no such excuse. They will be judged on their faith, and if found lacking, the will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity.
     
  15. neal4christ

    neal4christ
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    [Removed unedifying comment] Why would God force those who reject His gift to accept it? Why are you trying to blur the lines? If you want to call rejecting Christ a sin, then go ahead. I think it is different. But that is NOT my point. Your side will say that it is unfair for God to 'torture' people for sins that Christ has paid for. I would agree. But Christ did not pay for one's unbelief and rejection of what He offers them. This is a whole different ballgame now. That atoning work of Christ has a stipulation to it: belief. For one to obtain eternal life one has to believe in Christ first. If not, the atoning work does not automatically apply. It is a free gift (Rom. 6:23). The very picture of a gift is that it has to be received for a person to enjoy the benefits of it. But a gift can be rejected. It is clear that Christ paid for the sin of the world and that He bought people that are false teachers and will suffer destruction (2 Peter 2:1). Rather than denying and redefining terms as many do, why not take it at face value. There are people who will be thrown into the lake of fire with Satan (Rev. 20:15). So how do you reconcile this? They are thrown into the lake of fire because they rejected Christ and their names are not found in the Book of Life, not because of their sins.

    "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:15, ESV

    Well, it appears that some are in the Book of Life and others are not. But who is in the Book of Life?

    "Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life." Phil. 4:3, ESV

    Appears that Paul's fellow workers in the gospel are in the Book of Life (i.e. they evidently believe the gospel and received Christ).

    "The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, an I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels." Rev. 3:5, ESV

    Whose name will stay in the Book of Life? The one who conquers. It is only in Christ that we can be conquerors (really, more than that, Rom. 8:37).

    "And all who dwell on earth will worship it [the first beast], everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." Rev. 13:8, ESV

    Whose name is not in the Book of Life? The one who worships the beast. Obviously this person has rejected the true God and follows after a false god.

    "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the best, because it was and is not and is to come." Rev. 17:8, ESV

    Whose name is not in the Book of Life? The dwellers on earth. And we saw them in the previous reference worshipping the beast, not God.

    "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done." Rev. 20:12, ESV

    Again we see this Book of Life and its importance. Now before you say, "See, they are judged according to what they did, not their rejection," let me say that yes, they are judged according to what they did. But they would not face this had their names been in the Book of Life. This is clear from verse 15 of this chapter, that they are thrown in the lake of fire because their name was not in the Book of Life, not because of their works.

    "But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life." Rev. 21:27, ESV

    The only ones allowed in the city, ever, are the ones in the Book of Life. How in the world do you explain in your system that those not in the Book of Life get into this city?

    How does one get in this Book of Life?

    "That whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:15-16, ESV

    "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6, ESV

    "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become the children of God." John 1:12, ESV

    Seems clear to me that the only way to get this eternal life and special relationship with God is to receive and believe in the son of God, Jesus Christ. All others are thrown into the lake of fire. This is the whole basis for those who are thrown into the lake: they rejected Christ and did not believe in Him, thus their names were not in the Book of Life, which is the sole reason given as to why they are thrown into the lake of fire.

    Christ is the only one who has authority to give eternal life (John 17:2). The requirement to obtain this life is belief in Him (John 6:40). Make fun all you want, but it seems clear enough that the fundamental reason people are thrown into the lake of fire (hell) is because their name is not in the Book of Life because they did not receive and believe in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, not because of their sins.

    Respectfully,
    Neal

    [ May 25, 2003, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]
     
  16. neal4christ

    neal4christ
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    Does many = everyone?

    Neal
     
  17. Yelsew

    Yelsew
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    Well done Neal!
     
  18. Eladar

    Eladar
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    Ken,

    It is plain and simple. You believe a false doctrine.
     
  19. KenH

    KenH
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    I don't think I believe a false doctrine. Fortunately, for all of us, salvation is not based on having all of one's theological ducks in a row. Salvation is not based on doctrine but on the finished work of Christ Jesus.

    All I can do is hold to what I believe the Holy Spirit enlightens me to understand in the Bible. Any confusion on my part in receiving His enlightenment will be cleared up in Heaven. [​IMG]

    Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/
     
  20. KenH

    KenH
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    1)Then you don't believe that Jesus paid for all of anyone's sins. And that is not orthodox teaching among conservative Baptists. But then again, this forum was created to talk about unorthodox matters of belief.

    There are only three alternatives:

    1)Jesus paid for all of everyone's sins.
    2)Jesus paid for all of only some people's sins.
    3)Jesus paid for only some of eveyone's sins.

    From what you have written, you evidently subscribe to option number 3. I used to subscribe to option number 2, but I now subscribe to option number 1.

    2)Agreed. [​IMG] We differ on what the nature and purpose of punishment in Hell is. You believe it is God torturing forever and ever and ever and ever and ever... people who were conceived in sin and most of whom never heard the gospel during their lifetime on this earth. I believe that Hell's punishment is remedial because of that person's sin and is of a finite duration(age-lasting) in next age of the ages to come. Those who do not hear the gospel in this age learn about Jesus in the next age and like the apostles can then believe because they have seen the Lord.

    Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/
     

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