Unleavened or leavened ... unrisen or risen

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Crabtownboy, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
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    In many Baptist churches unleavened bread is used in the Lord's supper. In other Baptist churches leavened bread is used.

    Churches who use unleavened bread cite the example of Christ at the last supper where he used unleavened bread. This is the theological, if that is the right term, reason such bread is used.

    Until today I had never heard a theological reason for using leavened, or risen bread. At IBTS, here in Prague, leavened bread is used and the reason was given in the short sermon before the Lord's Supper was served. The explanation was:

    "Here we use risen bread because we serve a risen Lord."

    What are you thoughts on using leavened bread and the reason given here?

    As an aside they also use what they call Anabaptist Wine. This is wine made from the vineyards there were restored by Baptist and Anabaptist centuries ago on the lands of the Lichtenstein nobility. Those good folk, the Baptist and Anabaptist used this wine in their celebrations of the Lord's Supper.
     
    #1 Crabtownboy, Sep 5, 2012
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  2. Tom Butler

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    One reason given for using unleavened bread in the Lord's Supper is that leaven is a type for sin. Thus, because Christ was sinless, the bread should also be unleavened.

    I'll take either side of the wine vs grapejuice argument. The main argument for fermented win is that the leaven is purged out during the process of fermentation.

    We use grapejuice at communion in our church.

    But there are Baptist churches in my area which do use fermented wine. A friend of mine was talking with the search committee of a church, and they told him, "now we use real wine in the Lord's Supper. If this is a problem for you, tell us now, because we're not going to change."

    He told them he could live with it as long as they didn't buy the win at the liquor store. The explained that a lady in the church had been making the wine for years, so that wasn't a problem.
     
  3. Jerome

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    Fermentation does not purge out the yeast (is that what you mean by "leaven"?); fermentation is the yeast working. As with bread, dead yeast cells remain. Most of the particles can be removed from the alcoholized wine, but not even modern filtration techniques can remove all the yeast particles.
     
  4. Tom Butler

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    Thanks for the additional information, Jerome.

    If the yeast particles remain, but they are dead, would that support the argument for use of fermented wine in the LS? Or does it make any difference?

    For those who prefer grape juice because they are teetotalers, I doubt if it would change minds.
     
  5. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    My Opinion....


    That leaven in the Bible is a "type" of sin is undeniable. That Christ used unleavened bread when serving His supper is also undeniable and should be the example we as His church follow. He was faithful to the "type"...so should we be. Christ never "endorsed" the positive use of leaven for the reason stated in the OP. There are far better ways to illustrate the blessed resurrection of our Lord!

    As to using alcoholic wine for communion...well...fermentation is a process of corruption...and I believe it has been proven many times that the "new wine" of the Bible is NOT a corrupted,fermented beverage,but rather,the fresh squeezed, unfermented fruit of the vine.(there is simply NO WAY that my Saviour created HOOCH at the wedding feast!!!) The ONLY reference I know of in the Bible where the use of(possibly)fermented,alcoholic "wine" may be used in a positive light is 1 Timothy 5:23 where the use might be medicinal. That said...there is no way to PROVE that that wine was actually of the alcoholic variety. Stick with the grape juice....it is cheaper,purer...and doesn't cross the line into being questionable!:thumbs:

    Bro.Greg
     
  6. Jerome

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    The yeast in leavened bread being dead after baking doesn't make the bread unleavened, does it?
     
  7. Chad Whiteley

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    Yes, fermentation does clear out the yeasts. All yeasts will settle to the bottom of the fermentation vessel, creating a layer of silt, or sediment, when they’re through. I just wanted to clear up this bit of misinformation.
     
  8. mont974x4

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    I prefer real wine and unleavened bread. However, I don't know that it is a hill to die on. I am not going to refuse it if grape juice and a cracker, or even regular bread, is used.
     
  9. Oldtimer

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    Agree with the last sentence, in particular.

    Except in very unusual circumstances, yeast is in both bread and wine.

    I make sour dough starter by mixing flour and water. Lighly cover the container with a thin fabric. Within a few days fermentation has started. Yeast is in the air.

    Over ripe fruit will begin to ferment while it's still on the tree/vine/etc. when weather conditions are favorable. Yeast is in the air.

    Adding yeast, by hand, simply speeds up the process, whether making dinner rolls or wild plum wine.

    IMO, it isn't what we put in our mouth. It's what's in our heart when we

    Do this in rememberance of Me.
     
  10. mont974x4

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    Exactly....although I believe in giving God our best, so don't go cheap on the wine. :saint:
     
  11. Tom Butler

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    I suppose its in the mind, but for all my 65 years as a believer, The LS has always been unleavened bread and grape juice, so anything different would take some getting used to. No, a LOT getting used to.

    I've done a lot of thinking ans studying about the wine vs grape juice issue, and on this one, I'll take either side and give you a good argument.

    On the bread, I still fall in the unleavened camp for two reasons. One, the example of the first communion; and two, the symbolism is consistent.

    I"m going to have to think about whether I'd participate in the LS with Crabtownboy's brothers and sisters in Prague. Well, I wouldn't anyway if I were a visitor (I'm a closed communionist). So help me out here--is the correct symbolism important enough to quibble over?
     
    #11 Tom Butler, Nov 28, 2012
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  12. Oldtimer

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    Personally, I prefer unleavened bread and wine for the LS. Growing up that's what was used in the service. After returning to the church, the first time I encountered leavened bread, it caused me to pause and consider. At first I was "shocked" (for lack of a better term). Couldn't wrap my head around the concept, considering all the mentions in the Bible about leavening. Wine vs juice, not so much, for several reasons. (Scriptures & strong drink, children, and recovering alcoholics, for example.)

    The conflict remained unresolved in me until I really read the scriptures about what goes into the mouth does not defile the body. Right or wrong, I came to the conclusion that the type of bread and fruit of the vine, is far secondary to what is in our hearts when we partake of the elements of communion. IMO, it matters little if the best unleavened bread and finest rare vintage are used if there's a stumbling block in our walk of faith. If for some reason we are out of communion with the Holy Spirit, participating in church communion, regardless of what is used, is a ritual, with little meaning.

    Therefore, my answer to your last question is no. The "correct symbolism" isn't important enough, in this instance, to quibble (or worse) about it. As long as our brothers and sisters, in Christ, are truly remembering what Jesus suffered for us, that's what matters most. When a grateful heart remembers, what's put in the mouth, is no longer an issue, IMO.
     
  13. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I tend to agree, but have a problem with that view when I see Matthew 13.33

    'Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.'

    How can the Kingdom of Heaven be likened to sin? In this context it seems to picture the expanding powers of leaven in a positive light. It got me thinking for sure.
     
    #13 NaasPreacher (C4K), Nov 29, 2012
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  14. The Biblicist

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    I think that if you intepret that parable within its overall context it will be easy to see how it respresents sin there as well.

    Matthew is not written strictly after a chronological order of Christ's life and teaching and that is easy to see when you compare his account with Luke or mark's account. Instead, Matthew arranges his materials for a theological purpose as I believe he intended his work to be used for disciple making.

    However, beginning with the Sermon on the Mount right up to the conclusion of Matthew 13 in the very last verses there is an increasing rejection of John the Baptist and Christ by the nation of Israel and its leadership. It comes to an apex in chapter 12 by the leadership and personally with the rejection of his home folks at the close of chapter 13. Hence, chapter 13 is set in a context of rejection and I believe it is His explanation to his own disciples for why the apparent rejection by the professing kingdom of God - the nation of Israel.

    Briefly, it is due to a heart problem (parable of the four soils) and it is a spiritual and counterfit problem (the parable of the tares). If you will notice the parable of the mustard seed and leaven is placed in between the parable of the tares and its explanation while the parables of the treasure, pearl, and net immediately follow. All of these shorter parables are auxillary and explanatory of the primary parable of the tares.

    For example, after giving the parable of the tares which indicates Satanic counterfits among the true seed he offers the parables of leaven and mustard seed. Consider the picture he has painted. Here is a field and that is mixed with true and counterfit thus making it appear much larger than it truely is. That is precisely the comparison provided by the mustard seed. You look at the size difference between the seed and the plant it produces and what strikes you is that the seed size is deceptive for what it produces.

    Thus when one looks superficially at the field the size is deceptive and only the judgement will reveal its true appearance.

    Likewise, the parable of the leaven. When one places leaven in a lump of bread what happens? It produces an unnatural deceptive increase in size. When one looks at the field Jesus just described without a discriminating eye the size appears much larger than it actually is. Satan has "hid" his counterfits among the true seed and false doctrine and false teachers have made its apparent size much larger in this world in so much that eventually it is the true seed that is "hid" among the professing stuff of this world and so the parables of the treasure and pearl "hid" in the same field begin.

    I think you get my point.
     
    #14 The Biblicist, Nov 29, 2012
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  15. The Biblicist

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    In regard to the question of leavened or unleavened bread most expositors do not understand Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 5:6-8.

    The only "feast" which Christians are to "keep" where Christ is "sacrificed for us" as "our passover" wherein "unleavened bread" is found is the Lord's Supper. Hence, the Lord's Supper is in view but it is placed in the back drop of the PREPARATION for the Old Testament Passover.

    In the Old Testament God commanded that every house prepare for the passover and days of unleavened bread by each house ridding all leaven from within that house or else they could not observe the Passover and the days of unleavened bread worthily.

    In the New Testament the local assembly is "the temple" (1 Cor. 3:16) and "house of God" (1 Tim. 3:15). In order for the church body to properly prepare itself for observing the Lord's Supper they must remove such leaven from their midst as they cannot "keep the feast with old leaven."

    In context the "little" leaven that leaveneth the "whole" church at Corinth in regard to proper preparation was the open sinner in their midst which they are commanded to immediately "purge out" from "among yourseleves that wicked person" so that the "whole" lump would be reconstituted in regard to its membership as a "new" lump. They were not "to eat with such a one" as to do so invalidated the Lord's Supper (among other things listed in chapters 10-11) so that "This is not the Lord's Supper" (1 Cor. 11;20).

    Not only must the church as a metaphorical body of Christ examine itself for known sin in its midst (ch. 5) but each member may have sin known only to themsleves that needs to be purged out (ch. 11) so that both the church and the individual member could partake of the Supper worthily.

    The bread used in the Supper symbolizes both the observing metaphorical body of Christ - the church - and the literal body of Christ in union without sin. Those who fail to "discern" this concerning the symbol of the body of Christ - "unleavened" will partake unworthily as churches and as individuals.

    The bread used in the Supper must be "unleavened" bread as it depicts the body of Jesus Christ "sacrificed for us" not his resurrrection but as a sacrificed lamb "without spot or blemish." In addition, it also represents the metaphorical observing body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27) and "whole" lump in union with Christ WITHOUT KNOWN SIN, open division, and all the things Leaven symbolizes.

    8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
     
    #15 The Biblicist, Nov 29, 2012
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  16. percho

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    My question would be, are we leavened or unlevened?

    Why the feast of unleavened bread and not the feast of leavened bread?

    1 Cor. 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

    By what means have we been unleavened?

    1 Cor. 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

    Keep what feast? The feast of unleavened bread.
     
  17. percho

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    The Biblicist


    Question. Being the 15th was a high sabbath and no servile work to be done, beginning on the 14th would they not have began to remove the leaven from their presence thereby making the 14th as a preperation day for the feast day. the 15th?

    Does Luke 22:1-9 contradict the above of confirm the above. At the meal beginning the night of the 14th prior to the passover 14th daylight period had they already removed all traces of leaven and therefore ate unleavened bread.
     
  18. Bro. James

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    Did the person(s) preparing the elements wash themselves appropriately before touching the bread and fruit of the vine? If they were not facing Jerusalem on a clear day the whole thing is null and void.

    Unless: one has the magic words which change the bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Jesus.

    We seem to be getting more legalistic with each generation.

    What if: there is a New Testament Church in Borneo--all they have is taro bread and coconut milk. Can they observe the Lord's Supper?

    Welch and Mogen David would not like this for sure.

    Somewhere we are failing to discern The Body.

    Fermentation is a nature chemical process. Man has been speeding it up since Noah planted a vineyard. Alcohol is more a disinfectant than a leaven. Our symbolism is skewed along with our theology.

    Even so, come Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     
  19. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Thanks for the insight on that. Much appreciated.
     
    #19 NaasPreacher (C4K), Nov 30, 2012
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  20. The Biblicist

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    You are welcome. God bless
     

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