Unlimited Atonement

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Baptist 4 the Lamb, Mar 28, 2002.

  1. Baptist 4 the Lamb

    Baptist 4 the Lamb
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    The Bible teaches no such doctrine as limited atonement. Our sins are propitiated through faith in Jesus' blood (Rom. 3:25). The Bible also teaches Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

    Adam's offence brought judgment upon all men, but Jesus' righteousness brought the free gift of justification unto life upon all men (Rom. 5:18). Jesus tasted death for every man (Heb. 2:9).

    If the Holy Spirit was trying to convey the idea of limited atonement, He wouldn't have inspired men to use such terms as "whole world," "every man," or "all men" in referring to Christ's redemptive work if it didn't include everone. Jesus Christ accomplished redemption for all, but it is only applied through faith in the blood (Rom. 3:25).

    Why does the apostle Peter write that Jesus bought the false prophets and teachers who teach damnable heresies (2 Pet. 2:1)?

    If God made full reconciliation on the cross, none of those for whom He died would be guiltless before God, but the Bible says that all who are not believing on the Son have the wrath of God abiding on them (John 3:36).

    The Bible says that God loved the world, not an elect group, and sent His only begotten Son to die for their sins.

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
     
  2. tyndale1946

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    We exhausted this subject in the L in the TULIP which I started. You want to comment read and comment there! btw It is Limited Atonement!... Brother Glen :cool:

    [ March 28, 2002, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  3. Sovereign Grace

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    Jesus came to accomplish His Father's will (John 6:38). His Father's will was that of all He gave to Him, He would lose nothing (John 6:39). Not one drop of our Lord's precious blood was shed to make salvation possible, but to secure the salvation of His people.

    (Matt. 1:21) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    The angel told Mary, "He SHALL save His people from their sins." There was no "maybe," "if," "free will," or any of that. Jesus accomplished what He came to do: PURGE OUR SINS (Heb. 1:3).

    You won't hear that glorious truth preached this Easter Sunday.
     
  4. Brutus

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    Sov. Grace;if you don't mind my asking,why won't we hear that glorious truth preached on Easter Sunday?
     
  5. Sovereign Grace

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    Only those who attend churches which are Calvinistic in theology will hear that glorious truth Easter Sunday. All the other churches teach Jesus came to just make salvation possible for all men, but secured it for none; that He didn't save His people from their sins. Not many churches teach limited atonement.
     
  6. Brutus

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    The atonement is the work of God in Christ on the cross whereby He cancelled the debt of our sin,appeased His holy wrath against us,and won for us all the benefits of salvation.The death of Christ was necessary because God would not show a just regard for His glory if He swept sins under the rug with no recompense. Rom.3:25-26 says that God"put Christ forward as a propitiation by His blood...this was to demonstrate God's righteousness because in His divine forbearance He had passed over former sins.It was to prove at the present time that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies those who have faith in Jesus."The death of Christ was necessary to vindicate the righteousness of God in justifying the ungodly by faith.It would be unrighteous to forgive sinners as though their sin were insignificant,when in fact it is an infinite insult against the value of God's glory.Therefore Jesus bears the curse,which was due to our sin,so that we can be justified and the righteousness of God can be vindicated."Limited Atonement" addresses the question,"For whom did Christ die?" Behind the question of the atonement lies the equally important question about the nature of the atonement.What did Christ actually achieve on the cross for those for whom He died?
     
  7. Brutus

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    Sov.Grace; you're absolutely correct about that!And it truly is a shame.
     
  8. Brutus

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    Baptist4thelamb; If you say that He(Christ) died for every human being in the same way,then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ only died for those who actually believe. First of all,you would believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody;it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone,but instead created a place where people could come to find mercy---IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith without the irresistible grace of God.If Christ died for all men in the same way then He did not purchase regenerating grace for those who are saved.They must regenerate themselves and bring themselves to faith.Then and only then do they become partakers of the benefits of the cross.
     
  9. Eric B

    Eric B
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    This oft-cited cliche makes it appear to minimize Christ's salvation, but as the Bible does not even speak of "savability", it is a moot point. Salvation of people is not said to rely on others being passed over or reprobated to Hell or whatever you may believe.

    I don't seewhat the difference between those two statements. People finding mercy is the removal of punitive wrath.

    Once again, nobody is regenerating themselves or giving themselves new birth. You simply ask, and He gives. You try to say that just asking is a "work" in itself, or that you must have already been regenerated to do that (which presupposes Calvinist theory of regeneration before salvation), but that's the way the Bible expresses it, and never calls that a "work".
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Eric, Perhaps you missed the point of Brutus. The issue is, Did the atonement accomplish something or did it simply make it possible? If you believe the former you believe in limited atonement; if you believe the latter you believe in "unlimited atonement" (although you still limit it to those who believe). The Bible teaches the former (1 John 2:2). Propitiation is satisfaction, actual not potential. When Christ said, "It is finished" he meant that it was finished: Salvation was accomplished, not made possible.
     
  11. Brutus

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    If you believe that Christ died for all men in the same way,then the benefits of the cross cannot include the mercy by which we are brought to faith,because all men would be brought to faith,but they aren't.But if the mercy by which we are brought to faith(irresistible grace)is not part of what Christ purchased on the cross,then we are left to save ourselves from the bondage of sin,the hardness of heart,the blindness of corruption,and the wrath of God.Therefore it becomes evident that it is not the Calvinist who limits the atonement.It is the Arminian,because he denies that the atoning death of Christ accomplishes what we most desperately need,namely,salvation from the condition of deadness and hardness and blindness under the wrath of God.The Arminian limits the nature and value effectiveness of the atonement so that he can say that it was accomplished even for those who die in unbelief and are condemned.In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way,the Arminian must limit the atonement to a powerless opportunity for men to save themselves from their terrible plight of depravity.As Calvinists, we do not limit the power and effectiveness of the atonement.We simply say that in the cross God had in view the actual redemption of His children.And we affirm that when Christ died for these,He did not just create the opportunity for them to save themselves,but really purchased for them all that was necessary to get them saved,including the grace of regeneration and the gift of faith.We do not deny that all men are the intended beneficiaries of the cross in some sense.1Tim.4:10 says that Christ is"the Savior of all men,especially of those who believe." What we deny is that all men are intended as the beneficiaries of the death of Christ in the same way.All of God's mercy towards unbelievers,from the rising sun Mt.5:45,to the worldwide preaching of the gospel,Jn.3:16,is made possible because of the cross.And this is the implication of Rom.3:25 where the cross is presented as the basis of God's righteousness in passing over sins.Every breath that an unbeliever takes is an act of God's mercy withholding judgement,Rom.2:4.Every time the gospel is preached to unbelievers it is the mercy of God that gives this opportunity for salvation.From where does this mercy flow to sinners? And how is God just to withhold judgement from sinners who deserve to be immediately cast into Hell? The answer is that Christ's death so clearly demonstrates God's just abhorrence of sin that He is free to treat the world with mercy without compromising His righteousness. In this sense Christ is the Savior of all men.But,He is especially the Savior of those who believe.He did not die for all men in the same sense.The intention of the death of Christ for the children of God was that it purchase far more than the rising sun and the opportunity to be saved.The death of Christ actually saves from ALL evil those for whom Christ died"especially."
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    Baptist 4the Lamb,

    You gave me a new insight coming from II Peter 2:1. Up until today I had toyed with the idea that these ‘false prophets' were perhaps once saved and had gotten into error. This is not the case! You are correct. ‘ . . . who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord who {BOUGHT them}, and bring on themselves swift destruction.' Clearly, these men were unsaved because God said that ‘ . . . their damnation slumbereth not.' There damnation was not reposing.

    Note also God did not plan their eternal demise in Hell; ‘ . . . they brought on themselves {their own} swift destruction.'

    Peter moves forward using the illustration of the fallen angels, the wicked of Noah's era, and Sodom and Gomorrha who like these ‘false teachers' were judged by Almighty God as being worthy of everlasting punishment.

    The word ‘bought' is {agorazo} meaning "to go to the marketplace, purchase, redeem or buy. How much clearer can God make it; He had redeemed their souls. These false prophets were included in the atonement of Christ but chose their lifestyle and belief system and then spread that error in the church.

    These ‘false prophets' were never Christians otherwise God could not have said of them, in verse three, that their judgment was nearing [Romans 8:1] and their damnation would be inevitable. [I John 5:13] Christians sins were judged at the Cross and now believing in the crucified One has the unfettered promise of everlasting life.

    The Moody Handbook of Theology authored by Paul Enns offers these remarks on page 327. 'Second Peter 2:1 indicates Christ died for the false teachers who were "denying the Master who bought them." The context indicates these are heretics doomed to destruction, yet it is said of them "the Master bought them." This militates against the limited atonment view.'

    Dr. Enns is a Th.D. graduate from Dallas Theological Seminary and is Dean of the Institute of Biblical training, Idlewild Baptist Church, Tampa, Florida.

    Thanks again for pointing out that these people were included in His unlimited atonement. The light finally went on and is burning brightly. Definitely these men never came under the canopy of our Lord's grace.

    Dr. Berrian
     
  13. Eric B

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    I did get his point, and that is what I answered. This whole dichotomy between "accomplish" and "make possible" is not in the Bible, but is purely man made. What you are doing is taking these terms and pairing them to other artificaial terms, (limited/unlimited) and then plugging a biblical term "propitiation" to one side. The Bible makes it clear that Christ accomplished something, but does not contrast this to "making possible". Of course, noone was thinking of any such thing back then, but still, we must be careful in formulating such unbiblical arguments.
    God's fram of reference is way above ours (the real implication of His "sovereignty"), so such comparisons are not even applicable.

    Our mistake is our own limited reasoning and deduction:
    •God is in control of everything
    •Christ's propitiation was effective
    •Everyone is not getting saved
    •God must be decreeing that people remain unsaved and go to Hell.

    God or the scripture never asks us to make such deductions. Just like God being "three" and "one" and Jesus being "God" and "man", we should admit that how it exactly fits together is beyond us.
     
  14. Frank

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    4 Lamb:
    I concur with your post about limited atonement. Jesus sacrificed himself once for ALL for ALL time.( Hebrews 10:10-12; 9:15-17). It is one thing to assert a thing to be true. it is a different matter to prove it. ( I Thes.5:21).
    Frank
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    Heb 10:10-12 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

    Heb 9:15-17 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

    The two passage you cite above as support for your position are here quoted. Please show us the relevant part about "all people." The second passage actually contradicts you, giving this promise to "those who have been called."

    Be careful about citing proof text because you can be assured that someone here will look them up.
     
  16. Historic Baptist

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    [John 10:11] I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    [John 10:26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    Christ gave His life for the sheep and for them only. None of His blood was shed in vein. Jesus justified His people when He died for them on Calvary. Jesus told the unbelieving Jews that they were not of His sheep.

    [Romans 8:30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    God justified those He foreknew and none else. "Those he foreknew" are obviously not the whole world. He justified them by sending His only begotten Son to die in their stead. The Bible declares this magnificant truth elsewhere - [Matthew 20:28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Many and all are not interchangeable terms.

    [Romans 8:34] Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    How could anyone for whom Christ died be not justified before God?

    [Romans 8:32] He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? [33] Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

    No one can lay anything to the charge of God's elect!

    [Hebrews 1:3] Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Jesus purged our sins when He died on the cross. Nothing can erase that fact. Jesus did not die to make the purging of our sins a possibility, but an actuality. Thus said Jesus, "It is finished!"

    [ April 11, 2002, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Historic Baptist ]
     
  17. Kiffin

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    Excellent post Historic Baptist!
     
  18. Historic Baptist

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    Jesus never told anyone how to be born again. Reread the dialogue between the Lord Jesus and Nicodemus.

    [John 3:1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: [2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Actually, Jesus told Nicodemus to "marvel not." Why? Because, "The wind blows where it listeth [wishes]." The Holy Ghost of God overshadows one of His dear elect children and plants within them an incorruptible seed. As a result, the convicted child of God will come to Him in repentance and faith. No one asks to be born again; what foolishness. It is not until one is born again that they have any desire for spiritual things.
     
  19. Historic Baptist

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    One more question...

    After all the inquiring that Nicodemus was doing to figure out how to be born again, was the Lord Jesus wrong since He did not tell Nicodemus to simply ask for the new birth? No, Jesus never said that.

    [John 3:7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    Every Christian believes that Jesus knows who all of His sheep will be in the eternal state. In fact, He knew this from before the foundation of the world. Yes, we also know that He has purged our sins and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

    The departure from truth comes when misled believers have been taught that Jesus' atonement is only worthy of those whom He has chosen. Christ made possible the salvation of every human being who will have ever lived. When they stand before the Great White Throne Judgment they will be with out any valid excuse. [I John 2:2c; I Tim. 2:4 & 6; John 3:16]

    Face the Word of God and read in simple English, 'Who gave Himself a rasom for all, to be testified in due time.'

    The winds of the Spirit surround all who hear the plan of salvation. 'Anyone calling on the Name of the Lord shall be saved.' [Rom. 10:13] There is no mystery intended here by God speaking about the wind. To believe savingly in Jesus is to be saved; to shun or neglect believing in the crucified One also has its responsibilities. Mark 16:16 indicates that human destiny is dependent of affirming one of two choices. Calvin's erroneous view of a decretive and hidden election is merely a nice try at correct theological thinking.

    Most of Christendom has shaken off the Roman Catholic priestly ideas from Augustinian and Reformation times handed down by Luther, Calvin and Zwingli. We have reclaimed the Apostolic view of an atonement that has left no one human being without recourse to Jesus. This truth of unlimited atonement was lost during the Middle Ages, but has beem rediscovered by people who study thoroughly the Word of God.

    Jesus has left the responsibility with human beings. He said in John 5:40, 'And ye will not come to Me, that you might have life.' This verse hardly backs up Luther's error of 'the bondage of the will.'

    Respectfully,

    Dr. Berrian
     

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