Unlimited Atonement

I never said the epistles of Peter were written particularly to the Jews. I changed that mistake in my second post. However, Peter was writing to Christians warning them of the apostate Jews teaching damnable heresies. There are many places in the New Testament where the Jews tried to force Old Testament laws and regulations upon Christians as a means of salvation.

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts 15:5)

There were certain believing Pharisees who were commanding Christians to keep the law of Moses. These are the false prophets and false teachers teaching damnable heresies denying the Lord who bought them. Moses clearly prophesied of these prophets in the "latter times." (Deuteronomy 31:29)

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (II Peter 2:1)

PLEASE READ THIS:

To the above, one may add the fact when these false teachers are described as denying the Lord which bought them, the word Lord is translated from the Greek word "despotes," a title which is never distinguishably used of the Lord Jesus Christ. The term occurs only 10 times in the scriptures. It is translated master upon five occasions; four of which have reference to men (I Timothy 6:1,2, Titus 2:9, I Peter 2:18), and the other is used illustratively of God (II Timothy 2:21). Upon the remaining five occasions, it is translated Lord (Luke 2:29, Acts 4:24, II Peter, 2:1, Jude 4, Revelations 6:10), where reference is either explicitly to God the Father, or may be reasonably interpreted as being so. Moreover, in the fourth verse of Jude, which is fully quoted above, these false teachers are said to deny the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. The first occurrence of Lord in this statement is translated from "despotes," but the second occurrence is from "kurios," which is by far the most common of the two terms, and the one that is used elsewhere, as here, with reference to Christ. Hence, Jude clearly uses "despotes" in distinction to Christ, which yet further adds to the already preponderant evidence that the false teachers were not in fact bought with the blood of Christ.

Indeed, with the last observation, the present verse appears to suggest exactly the opposite of what advocates of universal atonement would have it to say. The word Lord appears in II Peter upon 15 occasions; all of which have reference to God; most of which have reference to the Lord Jesus Christ, but 14 of which are translated from "kurios." What prompted Peter to depart from the habitually used "kurios" in 2:1, where "despotes" is used instead? If Peter is indeed asserting that the false teachers were bought with the blood of Christ, then this message would have been best conveyed with "kurios." The fact that a different term was used indicates that a different message was intended; thus, it appears that Peter was deliberately avoiding the suggestion that these had been bought through Christ's death. But what need would there be of such precaution if Christ did in fact die for all mankind?

 

Here are the replys Historic Baptist.

First off..In the book of John..you are still in the OLD TESTAMENT. But I guess you can say that those he is talking to are the ELECT..he is addressing Jews and Jews are God's elect people. Isaiah 45:4 which brings up a really interesting point. Israel are the Elect people of God yet there are Jews in hell..If they were elect and election really did mean those whom God chose before the foundations of the world..that Nation would be saved no matter what. at least that is the Clavinist thinking.

Anyway..back to John. first of all Jesus says he is the door of the sheep. So they are not chosen in him until they go through that door. john 9 says IF ( there is the choice if you do then.. if you don't) ANY man not just the elect..ANY enter in he shall be saved. nothing about the elect or quickening of the spirit for salvation. believe or not. how hard is it? so what what 11 says..JESUS TOLD you in v.9 who could enter in. Will you call Jesus a liar? he said it.

V.26 is just so easy to see. he didn't say because your not elect you can't belive..he said ye believe not..they of their own free will are not believing. And you would see that if you compared scripture with scripture and read WHY they didn't believe and it wasn't because of God.

but that isn't the subject. the subject is limited atonment and how can you go to a place where Jesus hasn't died yet where noone was regenerated, noone was quickend with the holy spirit..to try to support your doctrine?

 

Historic Baptist..So now you want to say the Lord in 2 Peter is Not Jesus???? is the L capitalized in your Bible? it is in mine..and where it is capitalized it means Jesus. Lord as in The Lord Jesus Christ..who else is a Lord that is Capitalized???? What other Lord Bought.. paid a price.. for people with his blood?

Ephesians 1-4

Is NOT teaching salvation at all! salvation is taught in Romans 10. and in Acts 16 where the Man sought after salvation by asking "what must I do to be saved". and he was a unsaved unregernerate man BEFORE and during his seeking salvation. no place do you see the holy spirit coming on him to regenerate a dead heart in order to make the right decision. Even Paul told him..You must Believe..if salvation was how you say it is don't you think it would be there as you say plain as day?? yes! But it isn't and the man was saved and Paul Baptized him in v.33. read it.

Ephesians.1-4...no matter what you say this should mean..God tells you in v. 13 how the people were saved and the order of it.

Jesus is the ONLY one who was Chosen before the foundation of the world..he was foreordained. 1 Peter 1:20 a person is not IN Him UNTIL he is saved. and you can't be saved without the shedding of Blood.

Jesus is Chosen..people are not. people are chosen when they are IN HIM. but you have to be in him to be chosen..

okay..predestinated us. who are us? saved people..what is it that you are predestinated for? Romans 8:29 and notice FOREKNOWLEDGE comes BEFORE predestination..meaning God has to know you first but if your not saved he doesn't know who you are! (matt 7:22-23) your predestinated to be conformed to the image of God's son..not to salvation. it tells you right there what predestination refers to. and it ain't salvation!

and you were predestinated by Jesus Christ to himself you by according to the pleasure of his good will..what is his will? Eze 33:11, 1 tim. 2:3&4 ( you can spiritually apply Eze 33 to the church age as well)

I'm sure if you would compare scripture with scripture you could figure all this out.

 

Acts 13:48..I wish i had a dollar for everytime a Calvinist tried to use this verse to prove limited atonement.

comparing scripture with scripture you will see that predestination has absolutly nothing to do with this verse. Ordained does not mean predestined. nor does it mean forordained nor does it mean Before the foundation of the world. it simply means ordained..and that is in time not eternity.

Ordained to eternal life..If you read the context of the entire chapter you could easily see that Hearing the word is what made them belive. (Romans 10:17) also add to that that the Gentiles were SEEKING to hear the word as in v. 42..besought..look it up. that is before v.48 which lines up neatly with Romans 2:7 which says

To them who BY patient continuance in well doing SEEK for glory and Honor and immortality, eternal life.

don't tell me men can't seek after God..God just told you, those that do, get eternal life. again nothing about predestination or electon. (those can mean anyone..no specifics)

God doesn't ordain any Gentile to eternal life until he has followed his conscience and is WILLING to HEAR the word of God. as in this case.

 

Atonement: Sufficient for all efficient only for those who believe.

 

The Bible wasn't written in English. It was written in Greek and translated into English. The meaning of words therefore needs to be decided on the basis of teh Greek word.

When you compare Scripture with Scripture you can come to no other conclusion but that foreknowledge means determinative knowledge. The Body of Christ did not start before the foundation of the world ... it didn't start until Pentecost ... which adds nothing to this discussion.

One of my favorite verses. I have used it several times this week in sharing the gospel with people. However, when you study this comparison with Scritpure, we find that the only ones who will call are the elect chosen of God from before the foundation of the world.

Except verses like JOhn 6:64-65

Why did he ask this question? Becuase he was elect. Think of all the people who witnessed the exact same occurrence and did not ask this question. They simply didn't care. Their minds were in their natural state turned against God.

They were non-elect. So none of the elect will ever be lost (John 10:28-29, and too many others to list here).

I have always maintianed that in some sense the atonement was for every one. Common grace cannot be reckoned with other than on the basis of the atonement. However, Christ's blood did not propitiate those sins. This is incidentally the most difficult verse in SCripture for a limited atonement position and it is why many people would not call me a "limited atonement-ist."

However, Scripture must be taken as a whole. YOu cannot isolate certain truths from others and that is what you have done. You need to accept the plain meaning of what Scritpure says rather than trying to twist it around to fit your scheme.

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This thread has run its course. At 11:00 am EDT, I will shut it down. If you wish to continue some of the thoughts here, start another one.

 

The experts have explained it in a number of places and almost all of them disagree with you. Check the lexicons (other than the back of Strong's concordance) and you will see this. With your doctorate, you should have a number of these such as BAGD, NIDNTT, TDNT, TLOT, EDNT already on your shelves.

 

Romans 3:11 ... THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

God is the one who said it. Don't blame it on anyone else.

You have several times cited comparing Scripture with Scripture. Why don't you do it?

 

Knowing grammar would help here. The word translated ordained is a perfect (or pluperfect) participle and refers to something that happened prior to the main verb (believe). They had been appointed before they believed. The grammar that Luke used under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit refutes your position on this verse.

 

Well you can say what you want there Larry. SO WHAT if the Bible wasn't written in English? It was translated into English and I am quite sure God was able to get his word into english, so english speaking people could understand it, without the Greek and Hebrew,with no problem. so like i said i have a english dictonary to help me out with english words, that I might not know.

I guess you would use a spanish dictionary to look up a french word.

Besides that what greek and Hebrew texts are you going to for your information?

Do you even Belive the Bible to be God's infalliable word..as in the KJV?? or do you use the corrupted Alexandrian texts such as the N.I.V or R.S.V or any of the other ones that aren't the KJV 1611?


As far as english and grammer are concerned you might take your own advice..

 

Larry about the Acts 13 verse, I guess you really don't believe what God wrote in Romans 2:7 do you??

Ordain means ORDA'IN, v.t. [L. ordino, from ordo, order.]

1. Properly, to set; to establish in a particular office or order; hence, to invest with a ministerial function or sacerdotal power; to introduce and establish or settle in the pastoral office with the customary forms and solemnities; as, to ordain a minister of the gospel. In America, men are ordained over a particular church and congregation, or as evangelists without the charge of a particular church, or as deacons in the episcopal church.

2. To appoint; to decree.

They believed before they were ordained Larry or did you miss that part in Acts where they asked for the word to be preached to them? (again Romans 2:7) and what does the Bibe say about Hearing the words of God..Faith comes by what??? HEARING and hearing by the word of God.

how about when God says that after the word was preached they HEARD it and were GLAD, and GLORIFIED the word of God. do unsaved people glorify the word of God Larry?? or do people who have recieved and accepted God's word glorify the word of God?

so when your saved your ordained..appointed..unto eternal life right? and when you are saved you believe right? so no this verse in no way shape or form supports limited atonement. nor does it support predestination of the elect before the world began.

 

Ordained to Eternal Life

By John A. Kohler, III

“And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48).

According to Acts 13:48, only those individuals who were ordained to eternal life in eternity past by God the Father ever come to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour. To be ordained to eternal life means “to be appointed to salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.” This verse emphatically does NOT teach that individual human beings are ordained to eternal life in the course of time by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Instead, it teaches that ordination to eternal life precedes and does not follow or occur simultaneously with belief or faith.

Speaking of this verse, Arthur W. Pink rightly says, “Every artiface of human ingenuity has been employed to blunt the sharp edge of this scripture and to explain away the obvious meaning of these words, but it has been employed in vain, though nothing will ever be able to reconcile this and similar passages to the mind of the natural man . . . Here we learn four things: First, that believing is the consequence and not the cause of God’s decree. Second, that a limited number only are ‘ordained to eternal life,’ for if all men without exception were thus ordained by God, then the words ‘as many as’ are a meaningless qualification. Third, that this ‘ordination’ of God is not to service but to salvation itself. Fourth, that all---’as many as,’ not one less---who are thus ordained by God to eternal life will most certainly believe.”

Acts 13:48 is clear. It should not be “explained away” or “reinterpreted.” Only certain individuals have been ordained or appointed to eternal life. These individuals are God’s elect people.

 

Yes I do believe Romans 2:7 and I would recommend you study it out to see what it says. Funny how your mind works though ... read your statement above. "Concerning the Acts 13 verse ... you don't believe Rom 2:7." Which do want to talk about???

The word is tasso so look that up and see what it means. To explain a Greek word more fully by appealing to an English dictionary is bad theology and bad exegesis. Study the word that Luke used, not the one that translators chosen. However, the one the translators chose still refutes your point.

But you are not reading the text. Why did they believe? Because they were appointed to eternal life. That is what the text says. Your problem is with Luke and the Holy Spirit, not with me. The text says that "as many as had been appointed ... believed." It does not say that "as many as believed were appointed." Your KJV refutes you here.

Wrong on the first. You are appointed before you believe. That is what the text says.

On Versions, there is a forum dedicated to that if you wish to discuss here. This forum is for other issues.

Lastly, you have been warned about your manner and demeanor in this forum. Keep it civil and on topic or you will be suspended. This will be your last warning. Shape up or ship out.

 

Per my warning yesterday, this thread is now closed