US marines in hot water over Christian coins in Iraq

Until you quit dodging the fact that you lied about me, we are done here.

 

MP's point is so straightforward I can't believe it's gone on this long. Seriously.

I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I'm quite sure that MP is making a distinction between me-as-myself v. me-as-an-agent-of-the-state. When fulfilling duties in the capacity of an agent of the state, one's actions are the state's, not one's own, and as such must conform to state policy. Off duty and out of uniform, they are free men (or women), but soldiers wearing uniforms are attired as agents of the state and therefore bound to limit their actions. If they nonetheless feel a higher calling to witness, they of course should do so, but they must also then immediately leave the service, since they can no longer in good conscience perform the duties required of an agent of the state.

 

I would agree with you IF all religions were just a matter of life style prefrences and they were all of equal value. However, we know the truth. And this is not a simple point of everyone thinks they know the truth and therefore we are back to the "everyone has equal footing" argument. There is only ONE truth and Jesus IS that truth.

I think it comes down to a matter of perspective and priority. The most important decision a human will EVER make in their entire life is what they do about Jesus. And, the only way they can make that chouice is if they hear about Jesus and what He has done for them.

Whether a Christian lives in America or in a Comminist or Islamic country, the Christians first priority is to reach as many lost people with the gospel as he/she can.




Peter and John set the tone way back in Acts 4:18-19

18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.



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I think the bottom line is, we have marching orders from God that take priority over ANY human government or law. Paul spent a good portion of his adult life in jail for preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ when governments told him he wasn't supposed to.

When governments and false religions mix we get the things you mentioned. When government and Christianity mix we get the Constitution of the United States.

I spent 20 years as an "agent of the state" and not once did anyone ever misunderstand the difference between Major Dudley's opinion verses Bob, the Christian brother. There is no logical reason why an "agent of the state" (or an "agent of JC Penny's" or an "agent of Burger King" for that matter) can not be a good Christian and tell those around them about Jesus. Have we gotten to the point in America that the only ones who can tell people about Jesus are those that have zero affiliation with any organization? Only preachers and the unemployed can talk about Jesus?

I honestly think this is an argument of the devil (and, no, I'm not calling you a devil). I just think Satan tries every trick he can to get us to not witness. I could use variations of your same argument to talk myself out of ever witnessing. For instance... I travel around the world on a US passport. Should I not witness in other countries becasue I am representing the US and I don't want to confuse those I am talking with?

Think about it this way. If I lived in a muslim country and I got saved, should I not tell others about Jesus just because it is illegal? And most people in those countries that get saved do not have the ability to leave their home country. We would all agree (I think) that the Christian in a Muslim country or in a communist country should still share the gospel even though it is illegal to do so.

So, really, the debate is where do you draw the line as it relates to where you can witness. I say, as long as you share in love and understanding, there is no limit as to where you can share the good news of salvation through Jesus. Maybe God led you into the military or into being an "agent of the state" to put you in a place where no other Christian could be so that you can reach someone that is searching for a Savior.

 

Bob, this gets to the crux of where we disagree. When a soldier wears the uniform of an armed force, he is not representing his or her self, but rather the authority that uniform represents. Like I have said before, this not only is a constitutional violation of the First Amendment, but it also easily confuses the people in the invaded nation that we invaded under the cross and not the auspices of the US government. It reinforces the idea of a Christian crusade against Islam, thus fomenting further hatred and terrorism.

"When fascism comes to America, it’ll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross” — Sinclair Lewis

 

MP, yep, this is the crux of where we disagree. I'll lay out a couple of thoughts but I think we will ultimately have to agree to disagree on this.

I know this is a popular argument but it is not totally true. For instance, to take a completely different turn - when a soldier, sailor, airman or marine is in a bar in uniform trying to pick up a local girl (or guy) no one thinks he/she is "representing the authority that uniform represents." They just think he or she is trying to pick up a date. There is no confusion.

It is obvious in context when a military member is representing the country of the uniform they wear and when they are speaking for themselves.

Three things here. First, I think you and I would disagree on the interpretation of the First Amendment. I think it is saying that the government can not stop me from practicing my beliefs - even in uniform.

Second, the government of America (as it was originally set up) was not against spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. The arguments mostly were about denominations in the Chritian faith - not about false religions.

Third, like I was pointing out in Acts 4, God's command to spread the gospel everywhere takes priority over any government's laws. So, even if ou are right on the First Amendment, it doesn't negate God's command to spread the gospel.

Again, I can only use personal experience. I have travelled all over the world - 3 years in the Army Infantry and 17 years in the Air Force. I've never seen this and really can't ever invision a country believing this.

I think this comes off as a smoke screen. If God tells us to spread the gospel then that is what we should do. Islam and those that practice it do not need any excuses for hating us - they are controlled by Satan and will hate us no matter what we do. We should do everything in our power to get the gospel to them.

I'm not sure I would call it a crusade but God does have a plan for conquering Islam - leading as many of them to Christ as we can before the rapture.

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One more thing we must not forget. There is a Holy Spirit and He does have a ministry to the lost. When a soldier talks to someone about the love that God has for them and about the fact that Jesus died for their sins, the Holy Spirit is there working with the Christian. The Holy SPirit is giving the Christian utterence and boldiness and He is talking to the heart of the person being worked with convicting them of sin, righteousness and judgement.

 

Great posts, Bro. Dudley. You have really clarified the issue with your personal experience and zeal for fulfilling our Biblical commission. :thumbs:

 

Why is this always the unanswered question ?

I would like to see a biblical warning about keeping Christ to yourself when employed by the state. I don't think that makes me a Nazi.

 

What he said!! Great & thanks for posting, Brother!:thumbs:

 

Carpro gets no answer in this thread from me due to his unrepentant lying about me. I will answer it for you. However, I did not call you a Nazi, so don't be alluding to such.

There is no need for a scriptural case to be made. Military personnel are sworn to uphold the Constitution. They are not sworn to be missionaries. If that is a person's zeal, he should become a missionary, not a member of the United States Armed Forces. Note the Oath of Enlistment below:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

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Notice the oath has nothing about spreading the gospel or fighting under the banner of the cross. In other words, not every matter is a scriptural matter. There are some issues that are purely secular in nature. When shopping at the store, I don't have to consult scriptures to decide if Coke or Pepsi is God's choice. I believe there is no need to make every issue a religious issue. I never stated a serviceman or servicewoman should check their religion at the recruitment office. But upon their enlistment, their duty is to country. They represent all of us when in uniform, and should refrain from proselytizing.

I realize you don't agree. That's fine. You are entitled to your opinion, wrong as it is. :thumbs:

 

Christians do not suspend their Christianity and live hypocritical dual lives at any point.

 

I don't see any exemptions. Ergo, it would seem to follow that a genuine Christian cannot serve two masters.

It's not the illegality I object to, it's the promise-breaking. If a Christian takes a job to serve his country to the best of his ability as its agent, then he has voluntarily bound himself to do so and his employer (the state) has the right to expect him to fulfill such an obligation to the best of his ability. If he wishes to engage in activities which might be confused with those sanctioned by the state (and let's be fair, it's nothing like as close to a GI trying to pick up a girl in a bar), thereby damaging the state's interests, then it is his responsibility to immediately resign from the service and pursue that higher calling with integrity.

 

Seems MP has aligned himself with another lot, Carpro.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

 

OK, it was just a joke, but no biggie.

Well, I do appreciate you trying to back up your view with actual facts, it's a lot easier to read.

I'll give you one point, giving out coins seems to be like giving out tracts. I can see & support a private company, or an armed service, telling folks this is not allowed.

 

Curtis, thanks for your reasoned response. You are correct. For example, I would get fired pronto, if I were out sharing my faith with the customers of my employer by actively proselytizing them. There is a time for every purpose under heaven.

P.S. Sorry I missed the joke.