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Van Morrison: When Will I Ever Learn to Live in God

Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by Mike McK, Jun 21, 2005.

  1. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Yes. He and Gram formed the Burrito Brothers together after Gram got thrown out of the Byrds and Hillman got bored.

    Funny you should bring up Gram Parsons.

    Like Van Morrison, there's been a lot of speculation about his faith.

    I really don't like to play Columbo when it comes to people's faith, but I do believe that there are clues that would seem to indicate, at least on the surface, that Gram may very well have been a Christian.

    The first two things that come to mind are the fact that his elaborately designed "Nudie" suits featured Christian oriented imagery. In fact, his most popular suit jacket, featured on the album cover for "Guilded Palace of Sin", featured a giant cross with the inscription: "John 3:16/Jesus died for you".

    The second is that he made a point of ending every performance with a cover of the old Louvin Brothers song, "The Christian Life", even if it meant bumping other songs off the setlist to make room.

    I could be wrong, but I believe he also covered Kitty Wells' "Will Your Lawyer Talk to God For You".

    A number of other songs showed sympathy for the Christian worldview and some did reflect some level of faith on Grams part.

    We know that he spent two semesters at seminary and that his grandparents were Christians.

    I mean, this is all just speculation, but I think that when taken as a whole, it does give us reason to believe that we'll see Gram again one day.

    Something else that's interesting is the number of other people who were ran in the same circles who are Christians now.

    Virtually all of the artists of the early days of the Jesus Movement are people you could play "Six Degrees of Gram Parsons" with.

    The most obvious is Richie Furay, who is now a Calvary Chapel pastor.

    Add to that, Al Perkins, Dan Peek, Chris Hillman, Herb Pederson, Jim Stafford (yes, that Jim Stafford), Jonathan Edwards (the "Sunshine (Go Away Today)" guy, not the 18th century English revivalist), Barry McGuire, and many others.

    You mentioned Chris Hillman. Here is part of an interview with him I found while checking some of my facts for this post:

    Triste: And if you don’t mind me asking, you describe yourself as a pretty ‘developed Christian’, I think, in one interview once. I suppose these songs are meaningful to you on a personal level - something deeper than just on a secular level. Of course, many people sing gospel songs, but obviously they have another deeper spiritual level, don’t they?

    Chris Hillman: Well, yeah. I’m a member of the Greek Orthodox faith, having been an Evangelical Christian back in the 80’s, and then I converted to the orthodox faith. Yeah, I’m very much devoted to that, but I don’t get in people’s face about it, or try and convert anybody! But it is my own personal belief with my family, and I sing in the orthodox choir every Sunday - sing tenor - which is really Byzantine. Part of the liturgy that they do every week, and so it’s a completely different kind of music to what I do on stage, which is bluegrass. And even when we do gospel stuff, it’s out of the old Baptist style, and Herb and I do old gospel songs in our show. It’s really completely different. And then on Sundays when I’m in town, when I’m home, I sing these very old Byzantine hymns that you would hear in a monastery. But actually, both types of music embrace each other, if you follow me. I mean I get a lot out of the church singing as well as the other. And actually I get wonderful ideas from singing in a completely different style.


    By the way, if you like Gram Parsons, go check out a movie called "Grand Theft Parsons" with Johnny Knoxville.

    It's based on the true story of the theft of Parsons body following his death.

    Good. I'm glad you liked that. I got a lot of feedback on that and I wasn't going to post it because I couldn't remember if I'd posted it before (I had).

    And you, as well.

    I've heard them a couple of times. I never really got the "I'm making twenty million dollars a year, isn't my life terrible" thing.

    Now Playing: Bonnie Raitt - “Home Plate”
     
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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  3. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    They're very good. One of the memebers, Chris Hillman, is a born again believer. I may be wrong, but I think his partner, Herb Pedersen, is, too.

    Hillman was a member of the Byrds and the Souther, Hillman, Furay Band (incidently, his partner in that band, Ritchie Furay, is now a Calvary Chapel pastor).

    [/i] [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]it seems like Chris Hillman change his Faith...

    Triste: And if you don’t mind me asking, you describe yourself as a pretty ‘developed Christian’, I think, in one interview once. I suppose these songs are meaningful to you on a personal level - something deeper than just on a secular level. Of course, many people sing gospel songs, but obviously they have another deeper spiritual level, don’t they?

    Chris Hillman: Well, yeah. I’m a member of the Greek Orthodox faith, having been an Evangelical Christian back in the 80’s, and then I converted to the orthodox faith. Yeah, I’m very much devoted to that, but I don’t get in people’s face about it, or try and convert anybody! But it is my own personal belief with my family, and I sing in the orthodox choir every Sunday - sing tenor - which is really Byzantine. Part of the liturgy that they do every week, and so it’s a completely different kind of music to what I do on stage, which is bluegrass. And even when we do gospel stuff, it’s out of the old Baptist style, and Herb and I do old gospel songs in our show. It’s really completely different. And then on Sundays when I’m in town, when I’m home, I sing these very old Byzantine hymns that you would hear in a monastery. But actually, both types of music embrace each other, if you follow me. I mean I get a lot out of the church singing as well as the other. And actually I get wonderful ideas from singing in a completely different style.

    Triste: So at church then, you basically sing in the Eastern tradition, obviously. I presume the harmonies are different - different intervals or whatever?

    Chris Hillman: Yeah it is different. It uses different musical scales. But it is the Eastern Orthodox Church. As you would expect with the Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, and the Orthodox faith of course, coming out of Constantinople, Istanbul, it is very different you know. But that’s a whole other discussion!
     
  4. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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  5. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    VAN.......

    We were born before the wind
    Also younger than the sun
    Ere the bonnie boat was won as we sailed into the mystic
    Hark, now hear the sailors cry
    Smell the sea and feel the sky
    Let your soul and spirit fly into the mystic

    Nearly twenty years after Moondance, Morrison wrote another song connecting the eternal with the temporal. "When Will I Ever Learn To Live In God?", from the album Avalon Sunset, is a moving contemplation of the relationship between nature, art, and the desire to "live in God." Although some Christians saw Avalon Sunset as Morrison’s public profession of Christian faith, this seems unlikely. Morrison has stated that he is a Christian, but he admits his involvement in Scientology, transcendental meditation, and assorted New Age practices.

    However, the Christian themes in Avalon Sunset are striking, and the album contains one of Morrison’s few direct references to Jesus Christ, found in "Whenever God Shines His Light On Me," an upbeat duet with Cliff Richards. Whether or not Morrison is Christian, or just a masterful syncretist, the lyrics of "When Will I Ever Learn To Live In God?", set to a lovely melody, are incarnational:

    **************************

    whatever you do...do not tell van this music is spending the gospel. It seems he hates for one to say that......

    Morrison is not interested in proselytizing, creating propoganda, or lecturing, flaws common in "contemporary Christian music" (mostly evangelical Protestant) and in the music of rock artists attempting serious statements about ecology, politics, and social ills. Such ends irritate Morrison, who seems to appreciate the power and limits of popular music. Once asked about fans looking to musicians for political guidance, he responded with irritation, "Why do people expect us to solve the world's problems? It’s absurd. I mean, if politicians can't do it, how . . . . can musicians?"
     
  6. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    I thought I already quoted this article.

    Like I said, he's intensely private and quite reclusive.

    I agree with that last statement that he made.

    Why do people assume that because you can pick a guitar, you must be called to minister and sing Gospel music?

    Now Playing: Radney Foster – “Are You Ready for the Big Show”
     
  7. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Like you would stop listening to rock..haha

    But you are so right. let me get these for you.

    1st..van

    carl-olson.com/articles/morrison_star.html
     
  8. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    I thought I already quoted this article.

    Like I said, he's intensely private and quite reclusive.

    I agree with that last statement that he made.

    Why do people assume that because you can pick a guitar, you must be called to minister and sing Gospel music?

    Now Playing: Radney Foster – “Are You Ready for the Big Show”
    </font>[/QUOTE]so this ....
    Scientology, transcendental meditation, and assorted New Age practices.


    no big deal to you?
     
  9. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    aaw so now i see. you do not think Christ is the only way. well...that to me is a major problem.
     
  10. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Honestly? No.

    Because he doesn't talk about what he believes, and until I see evidence of "Scientology, transcendental meditation, and assorted New Age practices, I choose to go by what his songs say and not what others say about him.

    He says he's a Christian and his songs contain lyrics things that are sympathetic to Christianity, if not outright statements of faith so I'm going to take his word for it until I see otherwise.

    Now Playing: Ruthie and the Wranglers – “Someday”
     
  11. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Perhaps you could offer some alternatives for me to listen to.


    Now Playing: Ray Charles – “Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music”
     
  12. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    So, because I ask you for a source for a quote that you've taken out of context, I don't believe that Christ is the only way?

    Now Playing: Chuck Willis - "Chuck Willis Wails"
     
  13. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Honestly? No.

    Because he doesn't talk about what he believes, and until I see evidence of "Scientology, transcendental meditation, and assorted New Age practices, I choose to go by what his songs say and not what others say about him.

    He says he's a Christian and his songs contain lyrics things that are sympathetic to Christianity, if not outright statements of faith so I'm going to take his word for it until I see otherwise.

    Now Playing: Ruthie and the Wranglers – “Someday”
    </font>[/QUOTE]well..i do.

    Now your faith is between you and God. Mike it may seem like i'm trying to tell you what to do. I'm really not. Just for a few post i wanted to show you that you are not posting "gospel music"..as our churches know it. To say that these singers are singing the gospel..because they use the word God is misleading. God to them means many things...many other things not in the Bible. is there some truth? Yes. Satan will always mix in some truth with lies.

    Do you not think we should stand up for the God of the Bible and His one and only Son Jesus Christ that came to earth...and sheed His Blood for a sinner just like you and me? And these other guys say...it does not matter if its Christ or not. To me..that hurts. That is a slap in the face of my Lord. You say you are fine with it...i just do not see how.

    What if i was a young believer and bob was my hero..and i find he follows other Gods...Christ does not matter. would not this be a wrong path for a believe to take?

    Bob once professed Christ...but now he upholds the jewish faith..and proclaimes that. That qoute i posted was from a jewish site. I do not mean to just bash Bob. If he has turned to the jewish faith as he says, we need to pray for him. I'm just saying his music is another faith now.

    so is vans music...so are many others.

    Now..i know i have not change you in one bit. Maybe someday you may look back and remember one line of this..and maybe not.

    at any rate. i'll leave you alone to have your fun.

    In THE ROCK...James
     
  14. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    If your conviction is that his music is bad because of something you read in an article that you don't know is true, then you shouldn't listen to it.

    Nooooooo. Not you!

    Although Van Morrison has included Gospel songs in his albums (his version of "Be Thou My Vision" is beautiful), I don't recall anyone here saying that he's a Gospel singer.

    I'm glad that you feel qualified to judge them based on something that a third party says, that we don't even know is true.

    I hope people judge you more fairly than you're judging them.

    Of course I do, unless you're still going with the logic that my asking for a source for a quote that you took out of context means that I don't believe that Jesus is the "only way".



    Who has said this?

    I don't see how, either.

    Of course I also don't see where I said this.

    I hope you would be smart enough to judge his music on it's own merits.

    A site that you can't provide a source for?

    Of course you don't.



    It is?

    Could you please explain why his music, that was true when he was a Christian is now not true, now that he's not a Christian, according to you.

    I'm sorry you feel that way.

    As a Christian (who does believe that Jesus is the "only way", regardless of what you say), I do identify with his lyrics.

    I do indentify with the longing to know God more, as expressed in the song, "When Will I Learn to Trust in God".

    I share his plea to God in "Be Thou My Vision".

    I rejoice with him when he sings, "Whenever God Shines His Light".

    No one has ever claimed that he was a Gospel singer, only that his songs express feelings and experiences that are common to the Christian.

    It's ironic that the reason these two men refuse to talk about their faith is that it only leads to things like this thread.

    On that note, this is the last I'll say about it.

    If you have a conviction not to listen to it, then don't.

    I believe that God is using it to speak to me.

    Nothing you've said has been terribly persuasive.

    So far, all you've done is offer out of context quotes with no sources and to tell me that I shouldn't listen to rock and roll without telling me what's wrong with the music or offering me an alternative, like I asked you to.

    Frankly, I really stopped caring when you responded to my request for a source for your quote by saying that somehow meant that I don't believe Jesus is the "only way".

    Thank you.

    Now Playing: James Harmon - "Lonesome Moon Trance"
     
  15. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    In your own words......

    “Frankly, I really stopped caring when you responded to my request for a source for your quote by saying that somehow meant that I don't believe Jesus is the "only way".”


    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/11/1121/2.html#000023

    The statement, if true..still does not matter to you. Now i need to prove it is true..right? But you have already said...it still matters not to you... believeing in Jesus Christ as the Messiah is irrelevant. humm

    This to me is saying there are other ways

    this too about van. Notice when i asked if you cared..“no big deal”

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/11/1121/2.html#000029

    now some sources on Bob. I take you believe me on van

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/121/45.0.html

    notice on this next page below ...the “50% of the time”

    http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/articles/music/Bob_Dylan/7795/p1/

    next...the quote i posted you will find on this page under the heading “Prophet Motive”. ... but read the whole thing

    http://www.radiohazak.com/Tangled.html

    also read..
    http://www.myjewishlearning.com/culture/Music/AmericanJewishMusicTO/RockMusic/Dylan.htm

    i give you this too...but with fair caution about Cloud

    http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/bob-dylan.html

    however..i do not trust Cloud..sometimes it seems he MAY make up things. Many times i can never find his sources that he post. I post only for you information.


    In Christ..James
     
  16. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Right. This is the post in which I asked for a source. As you can see, nowhere in it did I say that Jesus Christ is not "the only way".



    First of all, yes. I would like a source. If you're going to post such a thing, then it is incumbent upon you to back it up.

    Second, now you're just being dishonest.

    You know very well that I never said that believing that Jesus Christ as the Messiah is irrelevant.



    Yes, and I explained what I meant by that.

    Of course, I'm sure that my explanation won't stop you from trying to twist my words.



    I take it you didn't read this link.

    If you had, you would have seen that his friend and former pastor affirms Dylan's faith in Christ.

    Here is the quote that you took out of context as it should have read:

    The first thing we should note is that, what he said, he said in jest.

    While it might lead to misunderstanding or, in your case, give ammo to those who would unfairly condemn him, it's a pretty reasonable statement to make.

    Many of us can acknowledge that we are torn between two natures, so why is it that unreasonable for him to acknowledge that he still carries the influences of his Jewish upbringing?



    OK. In all fairness, you didn't paste a quote out of context, you quoted someone who took a quote out of context.

    The bottom line is that the quote is still out of context.

    In any event, I don't see anything in the artical to indicate that Dylan "deconverted", only that his beliefs are very complex, as all of ours would be when examined only in bits and pieces.

    Again, nothing here indicates to me that he has deconverted, only that his Christianity is informed by his Jewish upbringing.

    Isn't this the case with all Messianic Jews?

    In the past year or so, I've become increasingly interested in what role the Jewish roots of Christianity play in our faith.

    I hope that doesn't mean that I'm not a Christian anymore.

    also read..
    http://www.myjewishlearning.com/culture/Music/AmericanJewishMusicTO/RockMusic/Dylan.htm

    I don't blame you for not trusting him.

    I don't trust him either. That's why I don't accept this last link as being credible.

    In any event, that's the last I have to say about this.

    I started this thread to discuss our commonalities, not to debate over someone's salvation, who I've never even met.

    Now Playing: Kelly Joe Phelps - "Slingshot Professionals"
     
  17. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    Bob Dylan!!! [​IMG]
    It is no secret that I possess a deep love for Mr. Zimmerman. As for his faith, I will never give up on him. I fully anticipate seeing him in Heaven.

    Regards,
    BiR
     
  18. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    I've heard them a couple of times. I never really got the "I'm making twenty million dollars a year, isn't my life terrible" thing.</font>[/QUOTE]Nah, I actually enjoyed pondering the lyrics, though I never understood why they felt compelled to use such excessive profanity. Mr. Zimmerman never need to use profane language when he shook a generation.

    Regards,
    BiR
     
  19. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    I've heard them a couple of times. I never really got the "I'm making twenty million dollars a year, isn't my life terrible" thing.</font>[/QUOTE]Nah, I actually enjoyed pondering the lyrics, though I never understood why they felt compelled to use such excessive profanity. Mr. Zimmerman never need to use profane language when he shook a generation.

    Regards,
    BiR
    </font>[/QUOTE]You're right but that's the problem with pop and rock music in general today. There are no good songwriters out there in the mainstream now.

    I'm listening to Robbie Fulks' "Georgia Hard" right now and I believe that he is one of the premier songwriters out there today.

    His song, "I Never Did Like Planes" sounds like it might have come from Merle Haggard's golden era.

    And then there's Mac MacAnally, who always blows me away with his songwriting.

    Of course, they wouldn't be the same kind of music as RAtM.


    now Playing: Big Sandy and His Fly Rite Boys - "Night Tide"
     
  20. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Hey, by the way, speaking of Herb Pederson and Chris Hillman, I'm going to be seeing them at the Delaware Valley Bluegrass Festival over the Labor Day Weekend.


    Now Playing: Elmore James - "The Sky is Crying"
     
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