Vatican: Time off purgatory for following Pope's twitter feed

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gup20, Jul 18, 2013.

  1. Gup20

    Gup20
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  2. BobRyan

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    I think the RCC claims that Rev 17 is all about the Jews being the great thing to fear in the future as God gives John that view of the future.

    Because (presumably ) - the dark ages - just around the corner from John's day - would be all caused by the Jews persecuting the saints - sorta like Lateran IV would.
     
  3. Zenas

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    The headline of that article is a little misleading. The article says,inter alia:
     
  4. BobRyan

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    If the Pope "could" provide an indulgence - why withhold them? He is not all knowing so he can't possibly know anything about the person that gets one. So why not sign the blank "spiritual checks" today and end this game that only has his own flock led around by it.

    I don't think any other Christian denomination plays that game - so the Pope would simply be blessing/benefitting his OWN flock by doing the necessary - and signing unlimitted indulgences for all Catholics today!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

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    And this is the guy they are pinning there hope on?!?:BangHead:
     
  6. Thinkingstuff

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    Nonsense. Typical Guardian tripe.
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness. I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholly trust in Jesus' name. On Christ the solid rock I stand! All other ground is sinking sand. All other ground is sinking sand"

    Some things just stay with me. However, I want to say that I'm not pinning my hope upon the Pope rather on Jesus Christ. The Pope is an office and a man. but Jesus Christ it is who saves.
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Spoken like a true Christian my friend, not an RC! I do like where your stance is again beginning to take you.:thumbsup:
     
  9. steaver

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    What's your take on all the pope worship that goes on around the world? You see them on TV, trying to touch him and kiss his ring or something as though he is God in the flesh like Jesus Christ. Does that bother you? And it's not just reverence or respect you see, it is flat out worshipping a man, weaping and whaling, it's appalling to me.
     
  10. DHK

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    Reported by CTV News:
    A Catholic follower in Brazil said:
     
  11. Thinkingstuff

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    I see the same behavior at a music concert were a musician is really liked. I look at it the same way. To some the Pope is a "Rock Star". That doesn't bother me as much as this: I happen to know that is the only spirituality some will have. Apart from treating the Pope like a rock star their personal lives is devoid of faith. That bothers me. I'm not saying all the people who are excited to see the Pope are that way but many are. Don't get me wrong, I respect the office of the Papacy and I like the man who currently is the Pope. And it is something to consider that this office unites Catholics world wide. However, I rather doubt that some of the People who are "going" crazy are doing so based on these concepts. As Vicar of Christ meaning" ambassador of Christ" I think for some this is as close to Jesus as they believe they are going to get in this life. Which is sad because it means they are devoid of Christ elsewhere in their lives. Which also means they really aren't adherents to their own faith. Other people who treat the Pope like a rock star believe that in Christian terms the Pope is a sort of Christian "rock star" and have a proper relationship with Christ but are excited. Let me put it this way 2,000 years ago the bishops of Rome were often put to death in the circus for the sport of the Emperors and the Roman Populace. Now 2,000 years later where is the legacy of the Roman Emperors? For all their great power and influence in their day they are no more. Yet we have here still going strong the legacy of those Bishops in his office professing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Now talk about an awesome thing! God has protected and kept that office despite the persecution and the multitude of years when all other people, powers, and institutions have come and gone in the sands of time. So for some being excited about the Pope is like exulting in a victory! And that I don't have a problem with. As far as wanting to connect to the Pope by "touching him" or "kissing him" I think this is human behavior of wanting to connect to an element of their faith. He's important to them. But that doesn't mean they worship him as one would consider "worshiping God". Its more akin to wanting to shake the hand or touch the president of "name country here".
     
    #11 Thinkingstuff, Jul 25, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2013
  12. steaver

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    idk, seems really creepy to me. Are you sure it doesn't generate from the top? I mean, if the pope is the highest office in the RCC, then it should be up to that head bishop to teach all those under his authority from the bishops on down to the parishioners that he is not to be bowed down to in any way shape or form. Humility is the number one characteristic of one who is close to Christ, the pope should be teaching these people that he is just a man and they should direct all their worship towards Jesus Christ alone. Just my thoughts on the matter.
     
  13. Thinkingstuff

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    In some ways the current Pope is doing just that. Doesn't want to be treated like a king. Makes his own meals carries his own bags. However, with the office does comes some respect. But I believe the Pope is attempting to get people to focus on Jesus Christ. Its clear if you heard some of his sermons. But not every body who rejoices in the Pope is replacing God with the Pope.
     
  14. Walter

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    Absolutely! His sermons have centered on hope and restoration through faith in Jesus. All one has to do is take the time to read them. Unfortunately, most on this board will not bother to do so.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Bottom line is that once your official statement is that you don't need to test the things you make up "sola scriptura" to see if they violate some Bible teaching - then anything goes.

    In fact bring up "sola scriptura" testing of all practice and doctrine as a subject on a RC discussion board and watch as the opposing posts pile in.

    In this case adding "twitter" to the list of things applicable to a totally made up idea like Purgatory - is not that much of a stretch - once you have the "make up stuff via tradition" model as the one you choose.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Walter

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    Nothing made up, Bob. In fact, Jesus as a practicing Jew would have said Kaddish. The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

    The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.
     
  17. DHK

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    Those verses teach nothing of the kind.
    1Cor.3:11-15 describes very clearly the judgment seat of Christ, a very specific judgment. There is no concept of purgatory mentioned there.
    Likewise the other references given in Matthew have no reference to purgatory--a man-made doctrine.
    It was around at the time of Christ, but Christ didn't believe it. Why would you infer that Christ is a sinner? Purgatory has pagan roots. Christ did not worship with pagan idolators. How can you blaspheme the name of Christ like that!!
    Here is the origin of Purgatory:
    http://www.mtc.org/purgtory.html
    --And you accuse Christ of believing in this paganism?
    Shame on you!

    The earliest date for II Macabbees is 165 B.C. The OT Canon was completed before 400 B.C., and the Jews would not even consider any book written after 400 to be a part of their canon. That rules out all of the Apocrypha right there. Jesus quoted from the Hebrew text far older than Maccabbees. Even the LXX was dated back to 250 B.C. And they did not include these spurious books of course because they had not been written.
    What they believe now is irrelevant. They are unsaved. They need Christ.
     
  18. Walter

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    No, shame on you! I never accused Christ of anything of the sort. What you assume is pagan roots actually has it's roots in Judaism. Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning. Of course, history is cruel to you, DHK, because you can show not one iota of evidence that before the Reformation the doctrine of Purgatory was ever challenged.

    But WE do have plenty of history that the doctrine was believed by Christians from the very start of the Church.

    "And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’" (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).



    Abercius



    "The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius" (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).



    The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity



    "[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment" (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).



    Tertullian



    "We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]" (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).

    "A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice" (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).



    Cyprian of Carthage



    "The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace [i.e., reconciliation] is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord" (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).
     
  19. DHK

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    If what they did was wrong then what they did was wrong. Some of them weren't even Christians, and some of your sources are spurious.
    Again I quote:
    http://www.mtc.org/purgtory.html


    It is paganism; pure paganism.
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    Bottom line is that once your official statement is that you don't need to test the things you make up "sola scriptura" to see if they violate some Bible teaching - then anything goes.

    In fact bring up "sola scriptura" testing of all practice and doctrine as a subject on a RC discussion board and watch as the opposing posts pile in.

    In this case adding "twitter" to the list of things applicable to a totally made up idea like Purgatory - is not that much of a stretch - once you have the "make up stuff via tradition" model as the one you choose

    1. There is no record of Jesus going to a funeral and mourning in prayer about the person being released from purgatory while dead.

    2. The Kaddish is a prayer of praising God.

    3. In the actual Bible - when Jesus attends a funeral He raises the dead.

    The Bible clearly teaches that there is a heaven and hell after this life. And that there are two resurrections (John 5 and Rev 20) one for the "dead in Christ" (1Thess 4) and one for the wicked.

    So certainly "life" comes after death.

    But none of these speak of the state of death - as being a place of purging torment as the saints await their entrance into heaven.

    Not a single Bible text for that.

    Nor any Bible text about praying someone out of that dead-and-purging place to get them moved into heaven ahead of time.


    Not one word in 2Macc 12 about the dead being transferred or even helped by prayers for the dead. Rather 2Macc 12 specifically states that nothing good at all comes about because of such prayers apart from the resurrection.

    Yet the RCC claims that there is benefit to such prayers while dead - because prior to the resurrection from the dead - such prayers avail the dead such that they are transferred "ahead of schedule" out of purgatory and into heaven.

    Totally made up stuff.

    Your appeal to Jewish traditions of making stuff up outside of the Bible is probably the best example of the model that the RCC is following - so I understand why you appeal to it and I fully agree that you can make the point that the RCC is not the first to do it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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