Verses that PROVE Definite Atonement

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Oct 18, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
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    Things you shouldn't post:

    "Anyone can make a list of verses. See mine? (insert list here)"
    ANSWER: Yeah but can you take the time to read all of these verses?

    "Yeah but 2 Peter 3:9 says..."
    ANSWER: Can you honestly unlock all of these verses with 2 Peter 3:9? Maybe you need to read the word 'usward' in that verse.

    "You just pulled those verses from other lists!"
    ANSWER: No I didn't. This is my own list produced by my OWN study.

    "You took them out of context."
    ANSWER: For this list, I have. For the doctrinal truth in them I haven't. Read them in context if you are skeptical. I have.

    "You're just trying to use verses to fit around your theology!"
    ANSWER: Read the verses for yourself and use your own brain. Cast aside your biases and let the Holy Spirit speak to you. I think if you're honest with yourself you'll see that these verses are pretty clear.

    "Yeah but these verses don't prove Calvinism."
    ANSWER: While many of these verses DO prove other facets of the doctrines of grace, this list is not intended to prove those. I'm just showing you that definite atonement is a Biblical doctrine. Do you accept the plain teaching of scripture? I do.

    "That's just your opinion."
    ANSWER: No it's not, it's scripture. Take it or leave it.

    Here are the verses. (emphasis mine)

    ____________________

    Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

    Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

    Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Mar 4:11,12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

    Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

    Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

    Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Jhn 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    Jhn 10:15,16 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

    Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

    Jhn 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

    Jhn 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

    Jhn 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

    Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

    Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

    Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

    Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    Rom 8:33,34 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

    Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    Eph 1:4-7 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

    Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

    2Ti 2:11 [It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:

    Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

    Daniel Allen
    www.spurgeon.us

    PS- you can find my entire list of verses (over 600!) that prove the doctrines of grace here. God bless you all!

    [ October 18, 2005, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: whetstone ]
     
  2. Monergist

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    Nice Work! [​IMG]
     
  3. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    No one argues that there is no Atonement but what kind and for who.
    Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    Notice this says that Salvation has come to the Gentiles. Salvation was once of the Jews only but now it's for all.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  4. whetstone

    whetstone
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    tank ya. Praise God for such an amazing truth!
     
  5. whetstone

    whetstone
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    I never said the anti-calvinist position believed there was no atonement. It's obvious that this thread is geared towards universal atonementists.

    No disagreement there. For both the Jews and Gentiles.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    indeed it is good work - unless you wanted to make a point about Arminianism. Simply pointing out the COMMON GROUND texts does not address the differences.

    The alternative to the Limited Atonement view of Calvinists is NOT just universalism.

    Even 3 point Calvinists accept the Arminian truth that the ATONING SACRIFICE of 1john 2:2 is for ALL - the debt owed by ALL is covered in the sacrifice at the cross!

    In Christ,

    Bob


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. whetstone

    whetstone
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    Hello Bob.

    Thanks for the nod. I realize what you're saying and I know that probably the majority of Baptist's who accept portions of Calvinism reject definite atonement. My question is: Can we use 1 John 2:2 to unlock all of these verses, or could there be an alternate interpretation of 1 John 2:2 that agrees with them? If 'whole world' means 'all people of all time' you will have some heavy explaining to do with each and every verse on this list. If 'whole world' means 'people from every nation on earth' then you have an interpretation that gels with the rest of scripture. What are your thoughts? God bless.

    Dan
     
  8. BobRyan

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    You start in your OP with 2Peter 3:9 asking "can we use 2 Pet 3:9 to unlock all THESE verses".

    Now in this latest response you ask if 1john 2:2 can be used to unlock "ALL THESE VERSES" -- but you have shown NO VERSES that are in conflict with EITHER the clear and explicit acceptance of 2Peter 3:9 OR of 1John 2:2 (The ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD).

    If what you mean is "can we bend 1John 2:2 to fit the usages of Calvinism" or "Can we bend 2Peter 3:9 to fit the usages of 4 and 5 point Calvinism" -- then I would say that it has been attempted but the attempts have failed.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

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    AT THE CROSS we see the "Atoning Sacrifice" for the WHOLE WORLD - completed for all mankind as the text says.

    But Calvinism would spin this around to say that NOT ONLY is the ATONING SACRIFICE of Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" complete but so also is the High Priestly work of Christ shown in Lev 16 completed at the cross (so lets just ignore the POST Cross work of Christ as High Priest defined in Heb 4,7,8,9,10).

    Then having established that point of error as the foundation - Calvinism observes that the ENTIRE process of Atonement can not POSSIBLY be completed/applied to ALL since ALL are not saved.

    I agree that ALL are not saved and that the LOST in hell do
    NOT experience the result of completed atonement. BUT THEY DID experience the result of the ATONING SACRIFICE Completed for them. (experienced in part if not in full) For that resulted in Christ standing at the door and knocking -- it resulted in the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin and righteousness and judgmenet - it result in their being ENABLED to choose life - as Christ who IS the light of the world came and "ENLIGHTENED EVERY one of MANKIND" John 1.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. ascund

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    Hey Bob
    As usual you go to the opposite extreme missing the truth in both attempts. Here, it is blatantly false that Calvinists disregard the POST-Cross work of Christ. It is you who denies this POST-Cross work of Christ Who continues to ensure justification to the UTTERMOST!

    Calvinists (and Free Grace theologians like me) are able to keep atonement in parallel with Christ's other High Priestly ministries - - - yet know that they are distinct. You blend them together replacing the sufficiency of Christ's once-for-all atonement with the foibles of human obedience.

    Your denial of Christ makes Calvin's error a triviality. Atonement is eternal, permanent and complete. Intercession is ongoing. Don't blend them together. Don't confuse justification with sanctification. This is one of the worst possible mistakes a theologian can make!

    Lloyd
     
  11. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    Actually your title suggest your going to prove atonement exist. I agree it does. Is it universal? It was originally meant for anyone that accepts the truth of Christ. Believing in Christ is what the atonement is all about. It doesn't extend to those who do not believe. However everyone can believe. No one is refused the ability to believe. As in the doctrine of Total depravity.

    Universalism is what Calvinism must be about. Calvinist being reformers of the original Catholic faith. Which is the so called universal church. Calvinist claim that Augustinism is the only true doctrine which was also the doctrine of the RCC. The RCC wandered from thier original faith and became apostate and people like Luther and Calvin protested against it. Thus the reformation. Calvin once said that apart from the Church there is no Salvation making the RCC a necessary part of Salvation. Which just isn't true. The church has no redeeming ability, it belongs to Christ alone.

    Calvin didn't want to destroy the RCC, he wanted to restore it to it's original faith. So when you talk about universalism your talking about your own faith.

    As far as universal atonementists.
    I'm not sure if anyone believes everyone will be saved.

    Romans 11:11 Shows who the rest of elect are after the Jew. God first chose the Jews to be His people and made Salvation avalible to them. Then When He came in the flesh, Christ made Salvation availible to the Gentiles that's everyone else and not just the Jews. There is no longer any difference between the two.

    Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    The amazing thing is along comes Augustine and Calvin and wala! we have a difference called double predestination. those who are elect and those who aren't. Romans 10:12 says that isn't so it says there is no difference.
    How is it you'd explain that difference when God's word clearly says there isn't any

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  12. whetstone

    whetstone
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    Calvinists are Catholics? and universalists at that? You're not making a whole lotta sense Mike.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    I guess you would have to "pay attention to the debate" to follow my point on this one Lloyd.

    Ranting will not suffice as a "substitute" for knowing the details of the debate.

    (See - it works the same on ALL topics)

    In this case Calvinism IGNORES the UNIQUE role of the High Priest in Lev 16 and as identified in Hebrews (POST CROSS) when it comes to the ATONEMENT because they NEED all aspects of the ATONEMENT to be finished BEFORE Christ gets to heaven. That way their argument for limited atonement can stand based on the observation that not ALL are saved and YET all aspects of the atonement ENDED.

    Get it? Yet?

    Once again Lloyd your pretending not to understand the argument does not serve hyour position. Nor does your ranting serve you when your argument runs out.

    In this case you are arguing the Calvinist point that the Atonement is over - they have already shown that those who fall off the cliff you just leaped off of - have no defense against the limited atonement argument that is based on the obvious point that AFTER the cross ALL are still NOT saved.

    The only half-baked response to their argument that you can muster once you have fallen on your sword as you just did - is to gut the atonement such that atonement IS completed for a man and yet the man is STILL LOST!

    Such a gospel denying concept is not taught in all of scripture and so CAlvinist then get to roast you for going there.

    And that is where I can not give you much help since you seem to willing to embrace the foundational error that results in your own roasting.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. whatever

    whatever
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    Hey Bob,

    Paul says that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us". Was Paul wrong? Did Christ redeem us on the cross, or does He redeem us some other time, or what?
     
  15. hamricba

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    Hi Bob,

    2 things I wanted to respond about-

    1) I'm not comfortable with your use of Jesus standing at the door and knocking comment. First of all, the context of that from Revelation 3 is not evangelistic, but calling a church to repentance. To say the atonement resulted in that is mixing Biblical concepts in a way they do not fit together.

    I understand as an Arminian you believe in a universal offer, else God is not just.

    2) Do you believe, then, that all men are regenerate? It sounds like you may when you say all men are enabled to believe. What would you do with passages like Titus 3:3-8 which teaches a saving regeneration? The Holy Spirit is clearly the agent of salvation there, not man.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    I realize it would be really great if Calvinists could "somehow spin" Paul so as to deny the truth of God's Word in Lev 16 where God shows us the process of Atonement STARTING with the ATONING SACRIFICE and also INCLUDING the unique work of the High Priest!

    How wonderful if we could just "ignore all that BIBLE" and cling to "Calvinism anyway".

    Christ DID become a curse for us and DID suffer as the "ATONING SACRIFICE" of Lev 16 "FOR OUR sins and NOT for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

    See?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Ray Berrian

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    Even the Pharisees and Herodians believed in the fairness/the Jusice of the Lord God, and they were clearly unsaved [Mark 12:13-14].

    Calvinist's suggest to people that they might consider that God has the right to damn the majority and save the few [Matthew 7:13-14]. God cannot do this and still remain God of justice and love [John 3:16].

    How is it that lost Pharisees could understand the truth about the Lord, even though Calvinists claim that sinners are 'dead corpses.' Apparently, there is a remaining 'image of God' in even those religious lost sinners [James 3:9].

    My impression is some of the brethren and some Calvinists who are not even saved, are resisting the work of the Holy Spirit not only in their hearts but first of all in their mind.

    All sinners are without excuse because Jesus' atonement is sufficient for all lost souls [I Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 2:9; I John 2:2] but efficient only in the elect because they have yielded to the convicting and convincing work of the Spirit of God.

    Either Jesus 'tasted death for every man' {persons} or He did not die as a Mediator for all sinners.

    If the atonement was not for all souls, the wicked at the Judgment of God could contend that the Lord was prejudicial against their eternal welfare.

    All mouths will be sealed because Jesus did not fall short of providing grace and His blood for all sinners [John 5:24].

    Is the Lord God bias or unbias? [Deuteronomy 10:17].

    I attended a Five Point Calvinist seminary for one year in Philadelphia (Reformed Episcopal Seminary}and we hear often about the wrath of God but little of the love of God and nothing about the justice of the Lord. This fits the pattern of Calvinism. Acknowledge the wrath of God and then bury the remaining attributes of God because this would portray Him in His true splendor, grace and sovereign love for all lost souls.

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  18. whetstone

    whetstone
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    Well there's you're first problem- you're telling God what He cannot do.

    And there's your second problem. You think Jesus has to die for people for them to be righteously damned.

    There's your third problem. John 5:24 says nothing about God providing grace and blood for all sinners.

    And there's your fourth problem. You think God has equal love and bias for the saved and lost. What a sad Christianity we would live if God had the same kind of love for His bride as He did for the devil and the damned in hell.

    God Bless Mr. Th.D.

    Daniel Allen
    www.spurgeon.us
     
  19. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Whetstone,

    Well there's you're first problem- you're telling God what He cannot do.

     
  20. BobRyan

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    He is the "Atoning SACRIFICE for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV 1John 2:2

    And as 1John 4:10 points out "God sent His Son to BE the Savior of the WORLD"

    Daniel said says nothing about God providing grace and blood for all sinners.

    How you spin that around "all for Calvinism" is amazing!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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