VERY Limited Atonement: Christ died for Paul

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Doubting Thomas, Aug 2, 2011.

  1. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas
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    While considering the debate between those who posit that the extent of the atonement is for the world and those who posit that the atonement is limited to the elect, I stumbled across this vital scripture passage that made me stop in my tracks:

    "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loves me and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20

    This changes the whole debate. Here, in this crystal clear, highly specific Scripture passage we see that Christ died for Paul and loves Paul. There is no mention of Him loving or dying for anyone else, nor of anyone else being crucifed with Christ or having Christ living in him. Therefore, based on this clear passage,we must conclude that Paul is the only one that Christ died for and that any other unclear passages that seems to us to suggest He died for anyone else--ie the world, elect, the sheep, etc--must be interpreted in this light. In fact Paul is 'the elect'--he's the one sheep whom Christ died for. And since he himself he was all things to all people--to the Jews, a Jew, to the Greeks, a Greek--he embodies in himself all nations and 'kinds of people' of the world. Paul is the world of 'all kinds of people' whom Christ died for.

    If this seems unfair and unjust, remember that as Paul wrote that only one can win the race (1 Corinthians 9:24-27)--all run, but only one gets the prize.
     
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

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    your right,,,,,thats pretty limited.:tongue3:
     
  3. savedbymercy

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    That scripture just means that paul had it revealed to him that he was one of the elect that Christ died for. He was one of the sheep..
     
  4. Doubting Thomas

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    To the contrary, Paul states all run, but ONLY ONE wins the race--you overlooked my reference to that verse above. Paul himself makes it very clear in his last letter to Timothy that he had finished the race that there was laid up for him (singular) the crown of righteousness. Besides, Christ Himself only mentioned going after ONE lost sheep in Matthew 18:12-13 and Luke 15:4-7. Again, Galatians 2:20 says NOTHING about there being others also allegedly 'elect' for whom Christ died or whom He loved--only Paul. Stop reading into the text!

    It's time we get past this whole Calvinist-Arminian debate. It's time to be Paulinianists, or even biblicists, since Paul wrote about 1/4 of the New Testament, and the rest of if should be interpreted in light of his writings since he labored more than the rest of 'em--see 1 Corithians 15:10.
     
  5. Matt Black

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    DT, nice one!

    And this means of course that God only loves Paul; I'm afraid that He doesn't really like the rest of us. The whole crucifixion thing was a bit of a bummer, I guess; you know, the whole dying thing just to save one guy, but hey! That's life...
     
  6. Doubting Thomas

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    Exactly, Matt. If God chose to save one guy out of the whole 'massa damnata', leaving the rest as vessels fitted for destruction, who are we to question? Can the pot talk back to the potter that made it?
     
  7. Matt Black

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    It's all up to the Big Cheese. He is Love, but Paul He loves more than others.
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    How does a person get past the fact that there is a portion of Christianity that says Christs death on the cross was only a token .....a pass to have man now call the shots? To me anyway, either his sacrifice on the cross had great significance or it did not. how do you ignore that & move on? Is this what Anglicans teach?
     
  9. Doubting Thomas

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    Oh, the cross DOES have great significance. It demonstrates God's great love. Greater love has no man that this, that a man lays down his life for a friend. Paul's letter in Romans shows that Christ even died for his enemies. Paul referred to himself elsewhere as the 'chief of sinners', so he uses 'enemies' (plural) in referring to himself to emphasize this point...sorta like the royal 'we'. Hope this helps. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

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    OK...Did He die on the cross for you, thus saving you or did He do it as a token of faith so you can express your belief & fidelity to Him? Which is it?
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    As a Catholic (depending what theology you chose) you were always taught to "Ring the Bell" starting with your parents baptising you. Then you had the 6 other sacraments to mark your way through life. Confirmation - Ding, Holy Eucharist -Ding Ding, ....your a bad boy ....go to confession----Ding, then back to the Holy Eucharist----ding, Ding, Ding.

    Get Married---a sacrament...one that I agree with & the hardest to keep in tact & grow...but Ding!

    Forget the Priest shtick..... Only pedophiles need apply....to me they should be eunuchs.(Ding Dong w/o the dong)

    Then when you keel over....you got the Pedophile blessing you....if he wants to these days....Ding

    & your in heaven...well not quite.....try purgatory & burning off sins.

    Arent you guys like that?
     
    #11 Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2011
  12. Doubting Thomas

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    If there is a 'portion of Christianity' that says "Christ's death on the cross was only a token...a pass to have man now call the shots", then such folks are hardly orthodox Christians--such would be humanistic, Pelagian heretics preaching a man-centered theology! Relating this to the Calvinist-Arminian debate, I've read that many Calvinists accuse Arminians of believing such a horrible thing. However, I've also read so-called 'classical Arminians' who vociferously deny this. You see, over the years I've learned that it is important to read all three sides of a debate, so we can make sure we aren't misrepresenting someone's position, even if we don't ultimately agree with it. These 'classical Arminians' (following the lead of their namesake, Arminius, and some other fellow named 'Wesley') state that God is sovereign and sets up the terms for salvation and must personally draw, convict, and enable a lost soul to have faith so he/she can come to Christ--otherwise no one could. They would also say that in their view that Christ's sacrifice on the cross has even greater significance that what appears in Calvinism, since He died for the sins of everyone in the world and not just for an unconditionally select smaller group (I don't know...you do the math: everyone in world>>smaller group of people). They posit His love and sacrifice is so great, that He even died for folks whom He knew who ultimately reject Him.

    This sounds great and everything, but as I pointed out above BOTH are wrong. Christ died for Paul--only one wins the race.
     
  13. Matt Black

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    Nope. Read the 39 Articles...
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

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    This sounds great and everything, but as I pointed out above BOTH are wrong. Christ died for Paul--only one wins the race.

    Your joking, right!
     
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

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    And what are they? Dont tell me RC Doctrine.
     
  16. Matt Black

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  17. Doubting Thomas

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    Well, that depends on which Anglicans you are talking about. You've got your Anglo-Catholics and Anglo-Calvinists and many folks somewhere in between. You also got the folks way out in left field--the Episcopagans who follow the lead of Spong.

    As for me, I am an Anglican my name, but I see myself in away similar to Martin Luther, who while a 'Catholic', nailed 95 Theses to a door and started the Reformation. I am going to continue what he started and nail 99 PLUS 1 Theses to the doors of Westminster Abbey, Dallas Theological Seminary, Saddleback, WillowCreek, the Crystal Cathedral, as well as the homes of RC Sproul, John Piper, James White, Joel Osteen, and Rob Bell.

    Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Christus, Sola Paul, Sola Deo Gloria!
     
    #17 Doubting Thomas, Aug 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2011
  18. Matt Black

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    Have you read any N T Wright?
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Matt....we are both connected to Constantine .... so boil it down. Your a Anglican & were raised as RC....you know this content & you know the issues.

    Thanks
     
  20. Tom Bryant

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    Let us know how the nailing process goes. :laugh:

    You have lumped alot of people in together.
     

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