VERY Limited Atonement: Christ died for Paul

Note where you place the term "alone" in your formula! That is not the Biblical doctrine of justification before God. No one disputes that it is "Christ alone" that is savior, that is the object of faith, that is the provision of grace. However, the dispute revolves around the words "faith" and "grace" and "in Christ."

There is nothing irrational about saying justification is "IN Christ alone."
There is nothing irrational about saying justification is "THROUGH faith alone"
There is nothing irrational about saying justification is "BY grace alone."

Therefore there is nothing irrational about saying justification before God is "BY grace alone THROUGH faith alone IN Christ alone" as the prepositions are definitive of the ONLY basis, and the ONLY conduit and the ONLY object in forumlating the Biblical doctrine of justification before God. This forumula is not a repetition of synonyms but the distinction of aspects necessary to formulate the Biblical doctrine correctly.

There is ONLY one basis - grace
There is ONLY one medium - faith
There is ONLY one object - Christ


However, if you really want to put your theory to test then take my challenge! The thread has been established for that challenge. If you think you are right and my view is irrational and illogical then step into the challenge and let us see who is unbiblical as human rationality is not the test of truth as "my thoughts are not your thoughts" is the declaration of God concerning that subject.

There is no irrationality about saying that justification is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone because each phrase is Biblically correct and together provides the correct Biblical formula for the doctrine of justification before God.

 

There is nothing wrong with each of those sentences, except for the fact that they contradict each other. The problem comes from linking all three together and then forcing mutual excluvisity upon each with the use of the word "alone".

For goodness sake...if you don't believe me, then ask Merriam Webster.

definition of ALONE
1: separated from others : isolated
2: exclusive of anyone or anything else : only <she alone knows why>
3a : considered without reference to any other b : incomparable, unique <alone among their contemporaries in this respect>

If it's by faith alone, then it cannot be grace alone
If it's by grace alone, then it cannot be by faith alone.

Justification is, however, by Christ alone. Everything comes from him and through him. There's your alone!

If you don't understand what the word "alone" means, then I can see how your doctrine wouldn't be a problem for you. However, words have meaning. It's kind of like saying that scripture interprets scripture. On it's face that is an ubsurdity. Scripture cannot interpret itself. A correct statement would be that one can interpret scripture by using scripture.

WM

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

Yes, and you dropped out of the discussion after Andre entered into that discussion and then he dropped out because he could not deal with the evidence I placed before him. Go back and look at it and you will see it Andre did not drop out because of any insults but he dropped out when I got down to the nitty gritty of verses 27-31 in Romans 4.

I have reopened the discussion because WM claimed that I could not sustain my position by the use of scripture alone. So here is your chance. Prove it! Note the thread uses only scripture and nothing but scripture.

 

They are not synonymous sentences. If they were you would be correct but they are not. They deal with three entirely different aspects of the doctrine of justification before God.

The basis or cause of Justification (by grace alone) is not the medium through which justification is received (through faith alone") and the medium through which grace is received is not the object of faith (in Christ alone).

They do not contradict each other because each one stands "alone" in regard to any other basis, any other medium or any other object for justification before God. It is that simple.

They are not competing with each other but they are DIFFERENT aspects necessary to be justified before God and all three stand "ALONE." By grace alone stands alone in contrast to any other basis such as "works." Through faith alone stands alone in contrast to any other medium such as sacraments. In Christ stands alone in contrast to any other object of faith such as the church and/or its ordinances. It is just that simple.

 

Look who it is that is using human logic, philosphoical rational instead of scripture!! I meet your challenge above and open a thread strictly on the basis of scripture alone and it is you that continues down the road of human logic, philosophy and secular history - not I.

 

Simple? Perhaps. However, faith and grace come directly from Christ alone. So the seminal meaning of the doctrine is still Christ alone without anything else. Attempting to seperate faith and grace out as discrete properties (as if we can actually understand the mind of God well enough to do this anyway) is a needless complication and only serves to minimize Christ's role in Justification. He is our salvation - He and He alone - everything flows from Him and through Him whether its grace, faith, or whatever. Personally, I think the Reformers went off the deep end with the solas but hey - that's just me.

WM

 

Please go back and finish reading my post as I updated it with some additional explanation.

 

Here is where Catholicism and all who follow her in their understanding and explanation of justification before God are exposed and condemned by God's Word.

1. By grace ALONE exposes and condemns works performed through anyone but Christ as part of that basis

2. Through faith ALONE exposes and condemns all other mediums for justification such as the church or its ordinances.

3. In Christ alone exposes and condemns all other objects of faith for justification - works, sacraments, priests, etc.

 

The words "faith", "grace" "Christ" are not synonyms for justification and if only one was necessary to describe conclusively the doctrine of justification then there would be no need for the other two.

Grace defines the Biblical basis for justification and the ONLY Biblical basis for justification.

Faith defines the instrumental means through which justification is received and the only instrumental means.

Christ defines the provisional object of faith and the only provisional object for faith because it is His Person and works alone that make provision for justification.

Roman Catholicism denies that grace alone is the basis for justification but teaches that it is grace/faithfulness to works basis for justification.

Roman Catholicism denies that it is faith alone that is the medium through which justification is obtained but teaches that it is a faith/sacramental medium/faithfulness through which justification is received.

Roman Catholocisim denies that it is Christ alone, meaning His substitutionary Person and work that is the sole provisional object of justifying faith but it is a Christ/church/sacramental provisional object of faith that is necessary to recieve justification.

 

The condemnation of works are those under the Mosaic Law - not all works...
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).

As you know there are plenty of references in scripture about the importance of good works.

Well, doc... I have to take exception with you on this. You won't find "faith alone" together in scripture except in admonition against it.
"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

I don't see that at all - especially in light of the fact that good works are called for directly in scripture.

WM

 

That argument is the very first straw man I deal with in my thread on Romans 3:22-5:1 debate. It is a FALSE argument and I prove it false by the context of Romans 3 - go read it and respond if you are able to.

Nobody denies this. However, what is denied is that "good works" performed by any human being other than Christ can justify. The error of Rome is reversing cause and effects. Note the cause and effect relationship between God's workmanship which is an act of being CREATED in Christ Jesus versus "good works." It is not "good works UNTO being created in Christ Jesus."

You are talking about the explicit terms and in a very debatable context! However, the doctrine is spelled out clearly in Romans 3:19-5:1 over and over again in great detail. It is especially spelled out in Romans 3:27-28 and Romans 4:1-6.

Your argument that this refers to works of JEWISH law has been thoroughly disproven in my first two posts in the thread "Romans 3:22-31 Debate." Go overturn it if you can. I only use scripture and context - no philosophy just scripture.

Nobody disputes they are called for. The dispute is for what reason are they called for and what do they obtain. Again, all of this will be handled on a thread that deals with this subject.

THIS THREAD DOES NOT DEAL WITH THIS SUBJECT - LET'S GO TO THE THREAD THAT THIS IS THE SUBJECT RATHER THAN DERAILING THIS THREAD.

 

Bwahahahaha!!! :applause:

 

Yes, I am now retired and I stay at home taking care of my wife. Between cooking meals and cleaning the house and going on walks with my wife I find the forum an excellent way to have mental exercise and defend the truth that I love and spent 37 years as a Pastor teaching and preaching. I hope you don't mind.