vessels of wrath

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Jun 16, 2016.

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  1. Iconoclast

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    https://timmybrister.wordpress.com/2006/10/26/dagg-on-the-vessels-of-wrath/

    Dagg on the “Vessels of Wrath”
    Yesterday, I shared the basic outline of John L. Dagg’s chapter on election but stopped short of his treatment on reprobation. The following section is Dagg’s exposition on the title “vessels of wrath” (Romans 9:22) and can be found on pages 313-14 in his Manual of Theology.

    Those who are not included in the election of grace, are called, in Scripture, “the rest,” and “vessels of wrath.” Why they are not included, we are as unable to explain as why the others are included; and we therefore compelled to refer the matter to the sovereignty of God, who, beyond all doubt, acts herein most wisely and righteously, though he has not explained to us the reasons for his procedure.


    His absolute sovereignty, in the discrimination he makes, is expressed by Paul in these words: “He hath mercy on whom he will have mercy; and whom he will hardeneth.” The natural tendency of human depravity is such, that the heart grows harder under the general mercies which God bestows, unless he superadds to all the other benefits which he confers, the renewing grace of the Holy Spirit, by which the heart is changed.
    This renewing grace he gives or withholds at his sovereign pleasure. This sovereignty, in so bestowing mercy as to soften the hard heart, is unquestionably taught by the words just quoted, however we may interpret the phrase “he hardeneth.” It is not necessary to understand these words as implying a positive act of God, exerted for the purpose of producing hardness of heart, and directed to this end. When Paul speaks of the vessels of mercy, he says that God hath “afore prepared” them for glory; but when he speaks of the vessels of wrath, as fitted for destruction, he does not say that God has fitted them for this end. As the potter, out of the same mass, makes one vessel to honor and another to dishonor; so God, out of the same mass of mankind, prepares some for glory, as vessels of mercy; while others, whatever benefits they may receive from him, being left without renewing grace, abuse the mercies which he bestows, and, growing harder by the influence of their natural depravity, are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.
     
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  2. Iconoclast

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    from GTY;
     
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  3. Van

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    Does anyone have a clue as to the point of this thread. The result of Adam's sin fitted humanity for destruction, for the many were made sinners, conceived in iniquity. Now how do we become vessels of mercy? God transfers us spiritually into Christ, the Redeemer. And how did God prepare beforehand? The Lamb of God was chosen before creation.

    Rather than claim God acting to soften hearts, and denying God acts to harden hearts, the Biblical truth is God hardens hearts for His purpose (Romans 11:7). And some people, through the practice of sin, harden their own hearts to the point they cannot understand the gospel (Romans 1:21).
     
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  4. HankD

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    Welcome to the Mugwump Baptist world Van, well said :)

    Although I shouldn't include the smiley in so serious a subject - but I will - couldn't help myself you know.

    HankD
     
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  5. Van

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    Thanks HankD, we are not alone.
     
  6. HankD

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    :Smile
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    Yes I do my clueless friend. Many people who study the Bible like to study what educated people have to say about some of the teaching in this case the thread is about the vessels of Wrath.
     
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  8. Iconoclast

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    [QUOTE="Van, post: . Now how do we become vessels of mercy? God transfers us spiritually into Christ, the Redeemer. [/QUOTE]
    God does not transfer anybody.
    God elected a multitude of sinners in Himself.
    He draws them in time.
    They are translated out of the Kingdom of darkness.
    .
     
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  9. Iconoclast

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    God is perfect and does not need to prepare anything
    He does all His good pleasure.....
    It is the vessels of mercy whom He has aforetime prepared by ordaining them to life before the world was.
     
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  10. Iconoclast

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    "Van,
    .[/QUOTE]

    Yes...and vessels of mercy were chosen In Him at the same time. This thread however is dealing with vessels of wrath.

    3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
    ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )


    yes you are.
     
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  11. Iconoclast

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    http://www.gracegems.org/Davies/vessels_of_mercy_and_wrath.htm

    Samuel Davies said this;
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    Samuel Davies pt2;
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    1. Consider your present dangerous situation! You hang over the pit of destruction by the slender thread of life, held up only by the hand of an angry God—just as we hold a spider, or some poisonous insect, over a fire, ready to throw in it! You are ripe for destruction, and therefore in danger every day, every hour, every moment—of falling into it! You are as fit for destruction—as a murderer is fit for the gallows, or a gangrened limb is fit to be cut off. Such polluted vessels of wrath must be thrown out of the way into some dark corner in hell—that they may no more encumber or disgrace the more honorable apartments of the universe. And is this a situation in which it befits you to be merry, and mirthful, and thoughtless, and eager after the trifles of time? Oh does it not befit you rather—to be on your knees at the throne of grace, and vigorously pressing into the kingdom of God?

    2. Reflect with how much long-suffering God has endured you, notwithstanding all your audacious and repeated provocations! One would think that one day's sinning against so holy and gracious a God, by a creature so deeply obliged to him—would make your case desperate, and that the evening of such a day would be the hour of your execution! But he has patiently borne with you for days, for months, for years, perhaps for scores of years! And all this time he has followed you with his blessings every moment, and granted you the means of preparation for glory. And yet you have been thoughtless, disobedient, ungrateful, rebellious still. How justly, then, may he inflict punishment upon you! And how industriously will his goodness and severity, his mercy and justice, be displayed in his treatment of you! What could you have desired more, in point of time, opportunity, persuasives—than you have enjoyed? Will it not then appear evident, that your destruction is entirely of yourself, and that, as I have told you before, God and his throne will be guiltless forever!

    3. Consider how dreadful will be your punishment, if you should perish at last by your present willful negligence! My text tells you what will be the design of your punishment; it will be to show the wrath of God, and make his power known! Such will be your punishment, as will be fit to show that it is almighty power which inflicts it, and that it is an almighty God who is angry with you! It will be his professed design to display the dreadful glory of his vindictive attributes upon you, particularly his justice, as the supreme Magistrate of the universe! His justice deserves to be displayed; for divine justice is not that ugly, grim, horrible thing, which criminals imagine. In a ruler, especially in the supreme and universal ruler, justice is not only a majestic and solemn—but it is a lovely, amiable, ingratiating attribute, essential to his character, and to the public good. And so it appears to all competent judges; that is, to all who are not self-flattering criminals, and therefore recipients of divine justice. The display of this attribute, therefore, upon proper objects, is necessary, to give a full view of God's nature to the world; to represent him as he is.
     
  14. Van

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    Post #8 reveals who is making unbiblical claims.

    Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
    1) Therefore the "God does not transfer anybody." demonstrates clueless claims.
    2) Romans 6:3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

    The denial that God puts us into Christ demonstrates a denial of scripture after scripture.

    No verse says or suggests God elected a multitude of sinners before creation. He chose us in Him before creation, but that election was corporate. When God chose Christ as His redeemer, He also corporately chose the target group of His redemption plan, believers, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says when we were chosen for salvation individually, we were chosen through faith in the truth, and thus were chosen during our lifetime. It is a lock.
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    Your misuse of the verses demonstrates an inability to discuss truth. A total inability. Repeating your error like a parrot is not going to have it become truth.....col1 is speaking of which Kingdom a person is dealing with....not what took place before the world was.....which you deny yet again as you do not grasp the verse in 2 thess. either.....no surprise here.
     
  16. Van

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    More insults, more ad hominems, same ol, same ol.

    I do not misuse verses, I just accept they mean what the say.

    First you say no one is transferred, then rather than say "oops" you change the subject and hurl insults.

    The doctrines you parrot have been shown to conflict with scripture, not once or twice, but over and over.

    Here is the biblical truth:

    1) Everyone is conceived in a separated from God, spiritually dead sinful state. Our nature from the get go is corrupt, we are vessels of wrath. When Adam sinned, the consequence was we were fitted for destruction.

    2) God chose Christ to be His "lamb of God" before creation as His Redeemer. When God chose His Redeemer, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him.
    The reason this (Ephesians 1:4) election has to be corporate is that 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches our election for salvation is through faith in the truth. No amount of insults or obfuscation will alter biblical truth.
     
  17. HankD

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    For such an important doctrine the scriptures you cited should be shown:

    1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

    Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

    Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I'm sure none of us think God does things willy-nilly but always with good reason.

    So, considering the last 2 scriptures indicating the "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" and "ordained to this condemnation".
    FWIW, I agree with the intended purpose (of course) - to show His wrath and make known His power but disagree with "being left to act in their sin".

    fitted - katartidzo - A very wide scope word - I believe the Friberg Lexicon (02810-2) is best - prepare, make ready, complete or perfect.

    Even other lexicon definitions require action on a pre-existing condition; UBS - mend, repair; Liddell-Scott - Restore, put in order again.

    It would appear that God had to do something to these vessels of wrath for them to show up in the time continuum in order to glorify Himself with His vindication of their wickedness.

    It does seem to be a minor observation but in my estimation it leads to questions involving the character of God and His purpose(s) of His creation of mankind which is holy ground to be carefully tread upon IMO of course.

    That these vessels were molded (my own translation term) by Him to ultimately reveal His power and glory, presumably in the final judgment.

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    HankD
     
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  18. Van

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    Hi HankD, I believe we disagree as to exactly what the verses you cited teach.
    1 Timothy 5:21 would seem to be non-germane. It certainly does not support individual election before creation.

    Matthew 25:34, the "you" is a general term, and was intended to apply to any believer. And "from the foundation of the world refers to the interval of time since or after creation, not before.

    Ephesians 1:5 teaches we were predestined for adoption once we were placed in Christ, no before.

    We agree, I think, that everyone was fitted for destruction as a consequence of Adam's sin.

    Jude 1:4 teaches that God put in scripture long before that those who turn from God are condemned. And the word is "marked out" not ordained.

    Since the wages of sin is death, to be made sinners certainly fits us for destruction. God did not need to deal with every individual off spring of Adam, only establish that any off spring would be made a sinner and be conceived in iniquity. Note we were by nature, children of wrath, pointing to the consequence of being born "in Adam."
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    ="HankD,

    Hello Hank....good imput.


    Apart from God's enabling grace vessels of wrath will express their sin nature daily. When the confession uses this expression , it is simply saying that God as Creator is under no obligation to do anything for them except to be their righteous judge.
    That He sets his love on the elect is purely MERCY. God does not prohibit the vessels of wrath from seeking Him.....they do not want to, even when the gospel is preached to them.....they are truth suppressors.
    I am not sure what you object to here? The natural default position of the sinner....is to sin;
    5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    eccl8
    11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

    12 Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:

    13 But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    "Van,

    none of the above. just an accurate portrayal of your denials. just observations.

    No...you intentionally wrest them out and state novelties.
    The topic of the OP. is vessels of wrath, but you use it as a platform to restate you false views on everything else.
    no one is transferred "spiritually" as you suggest.....We were elected individually before time....vessels of wrath, were not.

    You ignore what I said about be translated from the Kingdom of darkness, to the Kingdom of light...which takes place at regeneration...
     
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