Vessels of Wrath?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Pastor David, Dec 22, 2011.

  1. Pastor David

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    "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" - Romans 9:22

    Are some people God's 'vessels of wrath prepared for destruction'?
     
  2. freeatlast

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    If you are suggesting (asking) is that the passage saying that God prepares certain people ahead of time for wrath then no that is not what not is about. What the passage is about is about His long suffering so as to show His mercy.
    Verse 23
    And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
     
  3. Pastor David

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    So, some people are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, others are vessels of mercy prepared for glory?
     
  4. freeatlast

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    Keep in mind you picked one verse out of a passage. So No that is not what I said. I was trying to say the passage is not suggesting that God in some distance past decided who would be under wrath or under mercy. The passage is dealing with His long suffering so as to show His mercy to vessels of mercy.
    All vessels of wrath are prepared for destruction, but the passage is not suggesting that He has decided who they are in eternity past.
     
    #4 freeatlast, Dec 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2011
  5. psalms109:31

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    2 Timothy 2:
    20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

    22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

    Psalm 119:114
    You are my refuge and my shield; I have put my hope in your word.




    What Jesus went through He does not deserve it, I deserved it. No, mercy wasn't even given to His own Son, but because He had no sin He became a sin offereing and in and through Him we will be saved. God will not poor wrath upon His Son ever again. In Him we will be saved from the wrath to come to the world and those who are of it and who have not come to the rock of our salvation.

    Psalm 46
    1 God is our refuge and strength,
    an ever-present help in trouble.
    2 Therefore we will not fear, though the earth give way
    and the mountains fall into the heart of the sea,
    3 though its waters roar and foam
    and the mountains quake with their surging.



    Psalm 5:11
    But let all who take refuge in you be glad; let them ever sing for joy. Spread your protection over them, that those who love your name may rejoice in you.

    Psalm 18:30
    As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.

    Psalm 34:22
    The LORD will rescue his servants; no one who takes refuge in him will be condemned.


    Selah
     
    #5 psalms109:31, Dec 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2011
  6. JesusFan

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    yes, but remember that God sovereignity and that vessel "free will" remian in force

    Pharoah/Judas BOTH used by God to fulfill His plans, BOTh still did what they wanted to do!
     
  7. webdog

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    Yes...non believers.
     
  8. OldRegular

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    Some are chosen unto salvation in Jesus Christ [Ephesians 1:4], others are passed over!
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.



    here is some commentary:
    What if God, willing to show his wrath,.... The apostle proceeds to clear God from any charge of cruelty and unmercifulness, by observing his conduct in time, both towards those he passes by, and towards those he chooses; for in this and the following verse, nothing is said relating to any act of God before time, everything of that kind being considered already. In this verse, the apostle considers the conduct of God towards the vessels of dishonour; and let it be observed, that these are called

    vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; they are said to be vessels, and so no longer considered in the clay, in the mass and heap of creatureship, but as creatures formed and made, and brought into being; and so to be used as instruments in God's hands, to subserve his ends and purposes, and therefore called "vessels"; and not only so, but "vessels of wrath", fallen sinful creatures, and so deserving of the wrath of God, and objects of his vindictive justice, in whom he may righteously display his wrath and vengeance: hence they may be so called, being as vessels filled with his wrath; as such who are the instruments and executioners of his wrath are called, in Isaiah 13:5, , "vessels of his wrath"; and in Jeremiah 50:25; where the Septuagint use the same phrase as here: and they are moreover said to be "fitted for destruction", as Haman is said to be by the Jews (o); whom they affirm to be the same with Memucan, and ask why is his name called Memucan? and answer, , "because he was fitted for punishment": so these are said to be "fitted for destruction", that is, eternal damnation; not by God, for this does not respect God's act of ordination to punishment; but by Satan, the god of this world, that blinds them, who works effectually in them, and leads them captive at his will; and by themselves, by their own wickedness, hardness of heart, and impenitence, do they treasure up to themselves wrath, against the day of wrath, so that their destruction is of themselves: a phrase somewhat like this is used in Psalm 31:12, where the Psalmist, under some dismal apprehensions of himself, says, that he was like , "a perishing vessel", or "a vessel of perdition"; the Septuagint render it, , "a lost vessel". Now what is the method of the divine conduct towards such persons? he

    endures them with much longsuffering; as he did the old world, before he destroyed it; and as he did Pharaoh, before he cut him off: God not only supports such persons in their beings, amidst all their impieties and iniquities, but follows and fills them with his providential goodness, insomuch that many of them have more than heart can wish; nay, to many he affords the outward means of grace, which they slight and despise; externally calls them, but they refuse, loving darkness rather than light, and therefore are inexcusable: now if after all this patience, indulgence, and forbearance, when he could in justice have sent them to hell long ago, he is "willing to show his wrath"; his displicency at sin and sinners, his vindictive justice, his righteous vengeance:

    and to make his power known; what it is he can do, by the utter destruction and damnation of such persons; what man in his senses can ever find fault with such a procedure, or charge it with tyranny, cruelty, and unmercifulness?

    (o) T. Bab. Megilia, fol. 12. 2.


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    Vincent's Word Studies
    Willing (θέλων)

    Although willing, not because. Referring not to the determinate purpose of God, but to His spontaneous will growing out of His holy character. In the former sense, the meaning would be that God's long-suffering was designed to enhance the final penalty. The emphatic position of willing prepares the way for the contrast with long-suffering. Though this holy will would lead Him to show His wrath, yet He withheld His wrath and endured.

    Vessels of wrath (σκεύη ὀργῆς)

    Not filled with wrath, nor prepared to serve for a manifestation of divine wrath; but appertaining to wrath. Such as by their own acts have fallen under His wrath. Compare Psalm 2:9.

    Fitted (κατηρτισμένα)

    Lit., adjusted. See on mending, Matthew 4:21; perfect, see on Matthew 21:16; see on Luke 6:40; see on 1 Peter 5:10. Not fitted by God for destruction, but in an adjectival sense, ready, ripe for destruction, the participle denoting a present state previously formed, but giving no hint of how it has been formed. An agency of some kind must be assumed. That the objects of final wrath had themselves a hand in the matter may be seen from 1 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Thessalonians 2:16. That the hand of God is also operative may be inferred from the whole drift of the chapter. "The apostle has probably chosen this form because the being ready certainly arises from a continual reciprocal action between human sin and the divine judgment of blindness and hardness. Every development of sin is a net-work of human offenses and divine judgments" (Lange).


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    Geneva Study Bible
    {22} What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the {y} vessels of wrath fitted to {23} destruction:

    (22) The second answer is this, that God, moreover and besides that he justly decrees whatever he decrees, uses that moderation in executing his decrees, as is declared his singular mercifulness even in the reprobate, in that he endures them a long time, and permits them to enjoy many and singular benefits, until at length he justly condemns them: and that to good end and purpose, that is, to show himself to be an enemy and avenger of wickedness, that it may appear what power he has by these severe judgments, and finally by comparison of contraries to set forth indeed, how great his mercy is towards the elect.
     
  10. psalms109:31

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    Let's see what God has to say, we are to turn to God for answers.

    Romans 1:
    God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
    18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

    24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

    26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

    Romans 2
    God’s Righteous Judgment
    1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

    5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.


    I live in a vessel of wrath no matter if it is raining or sun shinny day's for me I deserve the worst, my only hope is Jesus. If is a big word in that verse, but the truth we are in a vessel made for destruction and there is no other name in heaven or on earth given to mankind other that Jesus Christ that we can be be saved from the coming destruction.

    James 2:
    8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[Lev. 19:18] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[Exodus 20:14; Deut. 5:18] also said, “You shall not murder.”[Exodus 20:13; Deut. 5:17] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

    12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

    Matthew 5:
    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[Lev. 19:18] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
     
    #10 psalms109:31, Dec 23, 2011
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  11. convicted1

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    The "vessels of wrath" are the Gentiles and the "vessels of mercy" were the Jews. God endured with much longsuffering for the "VofW" to show His power to the "VofM"(Jews), that the promise was to the Gentiles now as well. God is not slack concerning His promises, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but all should come to repentance.
     
  12. psalms109:31

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    When I see this body i see a vessel of wrath decaying dying at war with God. We will continue to have to beat this body into submission to God who live in all who believe trust in Him.

    The scripture of this O.P. to me is like all scripture pointing us to Jesus the rock of our salvation to take refuge in Him from the coming destruction to bid men to come to their only hope for salvation Jesus Christ.
     
  13. freeatlast

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    I don't agree in total as I think it goes beyond just the Jew being vessels of mercy and Gentiles being vessels of wrath as both are in both groups. Paul again is dealing with Jews just like in chapter 7.
    I believe here in this section it is speaking of those who come by faith verses those who try and come by works. The reason is verse 27, 30 and 31.
    Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    In the initial verse given in the OP (22) is speaking about God who desires to show mercy to the vessels of mercy through His long suffering. That would include Jews and gentiles alike and a remnant of both. So vessels of wrath is anyone who does not come to faith, Jew or gentile while vessels of wrath are those who do not and in the case of the Jew the ones who seek righteousness by or through the law verse 30 and 31. As I mentioned before verse 22 is not suggesting that God pre-ordained what individuals are in the group of vessels of wrath.
    I hope I have not complicated the passage.
     
    #13 freeatlast, Dec 23, 2011
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  14. marke

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    In the context of Rom. 9, God's word to Moses in Ex. 20 was that He shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments (vs 6), while visiting in wrath those that hate Him (vs 5). Nowhere is there any indication that God made anyone hate Him or that God made anyone love Him. There is indication, however, that some transformations or progresssions are taking place, which are indications that everything was not equally settled from the beginning of time. Pharaoh, for instance, hardened his own heart after hearing from Moses, which is an indication of growing degeneracy.

    We see the same thing in Rom. 1. When the wicked rejected the knowledge of God that God had clearly shown them, they "BECAME" vain... (vs 21) and their heart was "DARKENED" (i.e., darker than before). God didn't make men sinners and men are not born reprobate, they '"BECOME" reprobate by rejecting the truth they know is right. Vessels of wrath are vessels which were never successfully yielded to the potter's hand, so the ruined vessels was kept around as vessels of wrath still being used of God in His good designs for His people. Pharaoh was a vessel of wrath who was used to not just bring God's people out of slavery, but allowed God to do it with a high hand.

    Calvinists mistake the problem as having something to do with the clay, but that is not right. All are sinners and are made "of the same clay" (Rom. 9:21), so the sin nature has nothing to do with it either way. Sins or works have nothing to do with the reason for one vessel being a vessel of mercy while one is a vessel of wrath (Rom. 9:11). What is the reason, then, that God shows mercy to some and not to others?

    In Jeremiah 18, God says His people are like clay in the hand of the potter (vs 6). Good! Let's see what the Potter says about His clay. (vs 7): "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation... to destroy it, IF... (what condition determines what God does with the clay?)...I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them."

    The Potter does not decide from the beginning what He is going to do with the clay, and even if He begins to lean toward making vessels of wrath out of them for their rebellion, IF THEY REPENT, He will REPENT, and make them vessels of honor still. Nobody can twist the word of God and come up with anything different than that.
     
  15. Skandelon

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    I think it is actually just the opposite Willis, but I see why you think that...

    The 'vessels of wrath' who have been prepared for destruction are the Jews (generally speaking of course). God has patiently 'held out his hands to these rebellious people' (10:21) and by rejecting God's goodness their hearts have grown calloused (Acts 28:21-28). In other words, they have become 'fitted for destruction.' God is now 'giving them over' to their defiled hearts. And sending them a 'spirit of stupor' to seal them in their rebellion. This is actually an act of mercy on God's part because it (1) ensured the crucifixion because the Jews killed Christ and (2) allowed room for the ingrafting of the Gentiles into the church (the 'objects of mercy'), which in turn might provoke the hardened hearts of the Jews. Paul explains this fully in Romans 11.

    What makes this confusing, is that Paul also refers to people like himself, who were the Jews reserved from this hardening for a 'noble purpose' (apostleship). These are the remnant from Israel who were selected to ensure the message of redemption would go into all the world (which is why God had elected Israel in the first place)...this is what he means when he says, 'so that God's purpose in election might stand.' God had elected for Israel to bring redemption to the rest of the world, so he selected messengers from Israel (like Paul) for the 'noble cause' but not because any of them deserved it...
     
    #15 Skandelon, Dec 23, 2011
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