View on regeneration

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Feb 11, 2010.

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What is your view on regeneration / faith?

  1. regeneration precedes faith

    44.8%
  2. faith precedes regeneration

    20.7%
  3. faith and regeneration are simultaneous

    31.0%
  4. other

    3.4%
  1. webdog

    webdog
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    I wrongly assumed most calvinists hold to regeneration prior to faith, and non-cal's held to faith and regeneration being simultaneous. I now see there are non-cal's who claim faith precedes regeneration, which has many of the same problems, IMO, of the regeneration preceding faith view.
     
  2. webdog

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    I will say that "by faith" should be viewed as "through faith", which is not to show it being linear but the means through which one is regenerated.
     
  3. annsni

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    While I chose that they are simultaneous, my choice would actually be #1 and #3 at the same time. One does preceed the other but from our perspective, they seem simultaneous.
     
  4. webdog

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    Why would the view of an omnitemporal God be different? If anything from His vantage point (being in all places and all times at once) would seem it would be opposite, that finite beings who can only understand things linearly would need it prior to or following.
     
  5. Allan

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    :laugh: Figures, my laptop is very sensitive and it clicked on the first one as I was passing over it.

    Add 1 for faith preceding regenerition
    and minius 1 for regeneration for faith.

    One must of necessity follow the other. Even with faith is understood as the means or vehicle through which regeneration occurs this does not negate the fact that at the moment of one (faith), the other (regeneration/salvation) is immediately present. BTW - this is my view as well.
     
  6. Allan

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    God being outside of time doesn't change the fact of what happens 'in time', especially since He is working in time with a full and expansive view of eternity before and behind Him.
     
  7. Winman

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    I voted that faith precedes regeneration. While I agree it is almost simultaneous, the scriptures always place faith first.

    Matt 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
    29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.


    When these blind men came to Jesus (which shows they already had faith or else would not have come to him), Jesus asked if they believed he was able to heal them. When they affirmed their faith, then afterward Jesus healed them. I believe being born again or regenerated takes place the same way.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    This verse says that to those who receive Jesus and believe on his name, "to them" God gave power or authority to "become" the sons of God. So, I believe this absolutely shows faith precedes regeneration.
     
    #7 Winman, Feb 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2010
  8. webdog

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    You had me worried there for a moment...I thought "they" got to you :D

    I guess I'm not understanding the "necessity" of one having to occur before the other, and why it cannot be at the precise moment.
     
  9. webdog

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    I don't think either passage place faith prior to regeneration. The Matthew passage is not speaking of regeneration, but a miracle...and the John passage is showing the vehicle through which the power was given, faith. No order, but the means through which it occurred.
     
  10. webdog

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    Is God unable to simultaneously regenerate someone "in time"?
     
  11. Robert Snow

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    I believe faith precedes regenerition.
     
  12. annsni

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    Well, there's a cause and effect. I see the start of regeneration (not making one a new creation yet but changing the heart of stone to a heart of flesh), faith, then the finishing of regeneration (the new creation) happens all at the same moment but in that order. :)
     
  13. Winman

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    Well, we will have to agree to disagree. John 1:12 shows that to those who "received him" (past tense), to them gave he power "to become" the sons of God.

    In Strong's the phrase "to become" is defined as a "A prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb"

    A fuller description:

    Strong's #1096: ginomai (pronounced ghin'-om-ahee)

    a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be , partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

    So, this shows that "to become" follows receiving or believing.

    And I do not see healing as any different from being born again or regenerated, in fact, the scriptures often describe our sins as sickness or disease.

    Matt 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
    12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.


    Here the Pharisees questioned Jesus because he ate with publicans and sinners, and Jesus answered that they that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. Jesus was speaking of sin here, not physical illness.
     
    #13 Winman, Feb 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2010
  14. Allan

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    Let me put it this way.. If faith is the means OF regeneration -- which must of necessity be first.

    A better way of studying this is
    1. what does regeneration DO?
    2. HOW does this transpire or come into being?

    Here is a premise of my view from my old OP - Ordo Salutis 2 - the Regeneration :)
    And here is another I like to use when debating, with respect to :
    Which is always understood as being synonomous with regeneration.

    Let us look at the 'new creation' in which old things are passed away behold all things have become new.
    1. What constitutes old things?
    1b. Is it not sins and transgressions?

    2. How are they passed away or removed?
    2b. Are not our sins removed through the shed blood of Christ?
    2c. Is not this shed blood also known as the propitiation for our sins applied only through faith? (Rom 3:25)

    3. And what has to have happened in order for that creation to be stated as 'new' (without taint or blemish)
    3b. Does not payment for the penalty of sin (propitiation) justify us before a Holy God and set us free from that condemnation?
    3c. And does not our justification (being made free from judgment through a substitute) cause us to be clean, without taint or blemish on our account against God?
    3d. If this is so, are we then not sanctified (seperated) unto God being now freed from sin, cleansed from it's soiling, and placed in good standing/relation with God or better in unity with God?


    And with respect to Titus 3:5 which concerns the aspect OF regneration 1. justificaiton and 2. sanctification.
    Notice our salvation is dependant upon two things here, both of which are working of God the Holy Spirit. However notice especially that this salvation is due to two aspects of regeneration, which are specifically addressed. Some hold that the 'washing of regeneration' refers only physical baptism but I whole heartedly disagree since the wording here refers back to the OT temple regarding 'the laver' . The laver of cleansing stood outside the door of the tabernacle, wherein the priest had to wash before entering the Holy Place, this symbolized not only being clean before God of unrighteousness and sin but also being set apart unto God, sanctified.
    Thus we must also be washed in the laver 'of regeneration' but not of/by ourselves but by the Holy Spirit (Spirit baptism 'by fire' illistrating judging and cleansing) before we can come into the body of Christ which is the church. And we members of the body of Christ are also called "a royal priesthood" and like them we to must be cleansed prior to entering in of the Holy place/into Christ. I believe this fits more accurately the meaning of what Paul is conveying as the work of the Holy Spirit in the two main aspects of regeneration that constitutes a persons salvation.

    The renewing of the Holy Spirit refers to change in disposition. Thus the Holy Spirit does not just cleanse them from sin to go back to their old ways, but also makes them a new creation. This new creation/new birth is not only freed from the penalty of sin but freed also from the power of sin over them that they might henceforth live unto God and no longer unto themselves (2 Cor 5:15).

    The 'and' that connects the two aspects simply means 'in addition to' or "in conjunction with". In other words you can't have one without the other as each aspect, though distinct, works in unison with the other, for without one there is no other. As there is not justification without sanctification there is no sanctification without justification. And this why these two aspects of regeneration equate to and establishes the fact of one's salvation. They are two sides of the same coin and thus inseperable. For like the coin, to have one side without the other makes the coin of no value.

    And then look back at what scripture states about 'how' justification and sanctification coming into being in the life of a person - by/through faith.

    Anyway that is my take.. May God continue to bless you brother :)
     
    #14 Allan, Feb 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2010
  15. webdog

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    True, but again this is only showing that those who had received (past tense) were given (past tense) this power. It does not place one before the other.
    Logically, all physical actions and events are going to be linear (healings, death, birth). Faith and being born again are not physical, but spiritual.
     
  16. Allan

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    Also, as I stated in another thread -
     
  17. webdog

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    I remember that thread...a good one :thumbs:

    1. regeneration is the passing from spiritual death to spiritual life.
    2. through faith (the means :))

    I know I'm nitpicking a little bit...but it's a slow day and makes for good discussion :)
     
  18. Winman

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    Yes, but it shows "to become" as a consequence or outcome of receiving or believing on Jesus's name. Believing is the cause of God giving us the power or authority to become a son of God (effect). So necessarily receiving or believing occurs first.
     
    #18 Winman, Feb 11, 2010
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  19. The Archangel

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    This is not even close.

    John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

    And...what you so conveniently left out.

    John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Here's the parsings:

    v. 12
    -Did receive: 2nd Aorist, active, indicative. The aorist shows a simple "snapshot" of past time.

    -Who believed: Participle, present, active. The participle is not showing a verbal action here. This participle is merely stating there are presently believers and it is qualifying, as a parenthetical statement, "to become children of God."

    -He gave: Aorist, active, indicative. The aorist shows a simple "snapshot" of past time.

    -To become: Infinitive, 2nd aorist. Again, the aorist is showing a "snapshot" of past time. The infinitive shows the importance of the kind of action, not the time. The kind of action here is God's adopting of us.
    v. 13
    -Were born: Aorist, passive, indicative. Again, the aorist is showing a "snapshot" of past time. The "passive" shows that it is God who is doing the "borning," not us.
    So, here is a fully inflected translation: 12 But to all who did receive him [at some time in the past], who believed [rather, who are presently believing--showing belief is continual and persevering, not a one-time decision] in his name, he gave [at some time in the past] the right to become [e.g. God's adopting of us at sometime in the past] children of God, 13 who were born [by God's actions, not man's], not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

    There is no justification for taking "to believe" as a "middle." That's just funny, actually. Grammatically, it is impossible to take the infinitive as such.

    Also, all the aorist verbs in v. 12 are not showing "cause" or "progression." And, in Greek, "to become" precedes, not follows, the participle "who believed."

    So your understanding of this verse is not correct and cannot be.

    Further, you miss the main verb of v. 13 which is showing that the regenerating action is of God--the passive showing that the subject cannot act upon himself or herself--at sometime in the past.

    So, the only verb in v. 12-13 that shows any type of causative connection is in v. 13 and it is God's action, not ours.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
    #19 The Archangel, Feb 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2010
  20. zrs6v4

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    To avoid another 600 post thread, I voted regeneration precedes faith although I see it as a simoultaneous thing.

    Mainly because I dont think we trust in something we dont see spiritually so we can see, but we see and based on our seeing Jesus spiritually through the Gospel, we then come to Him in trust Him alone, desperately.

    I think a major part of being born again is the fact that our lights start to come on, and its really hard for me to say that I saw Jesus in utter darkness. Therefore I think regeneration is when the lights start to come on and faith is the result.
     

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