Views of Baptist Origins

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by rlvaughn, Jun 14, 2016.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,139
    Likes Received:
    25
    The following is not posted as a debate on Baptist origins, but to promote discussion on the different views of Baptist origins held by various Baptists. I developed the outline below out of the discussion that occurred here at Baptist Board probably ten years ago. It includes input from Baptist preachers Mark Osgatharp, Ben Stratton and Nathan Finn. What do you think? Might the totality of views on Baptist origins fit within this outline?

    Outline of various views of Baptist origins, presented in a chronologically-oriented format
    • Continuation
      1. Continuation of biblical teachings (spiritual succession)
      2. Succession of Baptist churches
        1. Church perpetuity
        2. Chain-link succession
          • Church succession (succession of church organizations)
          • Apostolic succession (succession of valid ordinations)
          • Baptismal succession (succession of valid baptisms)
    • Restoration
      1. Converging streams/multiple origins
      2. Influence of Anabaptists
      3. Outgrowth of English Separatism
    • Spontaneous origination
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,108
    Likes Received:
    266
    Your outline looks like a good start. I have The Theology of John Smyth in my amazon wishlist, maybe it will make an appearance for father's day.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,139
    Likes Received:
    25
    Always good to get those wishes out there before Father's Day!

    A couple of further comments. Not sure how well-known the idea of spontaneous origination is. Spontaneous origination has been mentioned from time to time in relation to Baptist origins. This idea, as stated by Brackney (The Baptists, p. xvii), is that "Baptists originate whenever and wherever the Holy Spirit calls forth a congregation which conforms to literal Biblical revelation, regardless of historical antecedents or relationships with other groups." This kind of origin is "spontaneous" in that any group of people might come to the conviction that the Bible teaches the baptism of professing believers by immersion and could by that be made Baptists. It has a basic difference from the other two views. Most views and sub-theories of Baptist origins knit together Baptist history, Baptist identity, and Baptist polity, but the spontaneous origination view does not particularly address when Baptists originated, but only how.
     
  4. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    9,629
    Likes Received:
    310
    In the main, I hold to
    I picked A, B, and C because the documentary evidence of emergence of Anglo Baptists from the shadows is scant at best. Though, I would say the continental Anabaptists had an influence on the other two choices.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,114
    Likes Received:
    206
    Secular Church history is: (1) uninspired and therefore subject to personal bias; (2) incomplete and therefore insufficient (3) often incorrect. I will take prophetic New Testament inspired forecast of church history over secular history. The Scriptures make it clear the prophetic forecast of New Testament history will be dominated by a church state form which persecutes, and distorts and therefore regulates true new testament Christianity to a "heretic" status. Furthermore, within the professing kingdom of God the forecast is that they will be the "few" among the "many" or majority which are "tares."

    I believe "Continuation" is the proper position. If you removed the concrete church, its ordinances, ministry and mission from the New Testament you would have very little left of the New Testament and so New Testament Christianity cannot continue to exist 9I did not say personal salvation could not exist) apart from its New Testament FORM as centered around the New Testament church institution. Hence, "Succession of Baptist Churches" or as I prefer to label it "Succession of New Testament Churches" is the correct choice through "church succession" as the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19-20 is impossible to administer apart from organic contact in a reproductive or successive manner. Each participle demands immediate organic contact between the administrator "ye" and "them." The third participle requires habitual assemblying together between "ye" and "them" as such things as Matthew 18:15-18 cannot be "observed" outside membership in a New Testament church and neither can Matthew 26:12-30.

    The reproductive character is immediately recognized in "make disicples" as a discipleis a follower or one who adopts and goes with the same gospel, administers the same baptism and observes the same faith and order as the master - so like reproducing like is built into the commission. Those who embrace and go with "another gospel" are not disciples of Christ but apostates (Gal. 1:8-9). Those who administer another baptism reject the counsel of God against themselves (Lk. 7:29-30). Those who teach and observe another faith and practice have departed from "the faith" (1 Tim. 4:1).

    The words of Christ promise day in and day out presence of this plural "ye" in congregational form until the second coming as his words are literally "all the days of the age" but as Dr. Hendriksen translates it "day in and day out until the end of the age." Remove the New Testament church from any generation and New Testament Christianity as revealed in the New Testament ceases to exist. Remove the New Testament church (officers, ordinances, mission) from the New Testament and very little of the New Testament remains.

    The "Church Fathers" are the historical record of apostasy that culminated in Western and Eastern Catholic churches. Those who originate or receive their ordinances from them are apostate as well - as who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean thing - not one! Not even God as he requires a "new" birth and ultimately a "new" heaven and earth.
     
  6. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,139
    Likes Received:
    25
    These are good points. Even though we are discussing origins in the context of Baptist history, it is the inspired biblical record (at least for many of us) that forms our views on origins rather than the incomplete and uninspired human record. I think this applies to folks who take different views. On the other hand, it seems that some people form their views on origin and continuation (or the lack thereof) mainly on the historical record. For example, I would think that applied to W. H. Whitsitt.
     
  7. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    9,629
    Likes Received:
    310
    What I believe (NT churches have existed since the days of the Apostles) is different from what I have documentary evidence for.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    So from all the evidence that you have has the baptism that John the Baptist administered to Jesus in the river Jordan (immersion) ever ceased?... Or has it continued until now?... Even though down through the centuries there has been a vehement satanic spirit to eradicate the practice and those who practice it... That what I have seen in my studies... Sorry if I got off topic... Those are my thoughts... Brother Glen
     
  9. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    9,629
    Likes Received:
    310
    If you will note, I gave myself some wiggle room. I wrote, "from the days of the Apostles". I left the exact date nebulous, as good men (and women) disagree on the date. Some hold the founding of the New Testament ekklesia to be Matt 16:18. Others hold it to be Acts 2. And even others a mixture of these two. Your Mileage May Vary.
     
  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    Oh I see what you mean now Squire!... Thanks for clearing that up with scripture... Brother Glen
     
  11. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    9,629
    Likes Received:
    310
    Matt 16:18 is the key verse. With it Our Lord says His church will not go out of existence. He didn't say it would never exist in the shadows.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I have a question according to the outline set up by Vaughn... I did not know this and found it out just recently... What impact did this action by Spurgeon have on the Baptist in England and America if any?... Brother Glen

    “The Rev. C. H. Spurgeon gave notice of his withdrawal from the Baptist Union, by publication in his journal, The Sword and Trowel, for November, 1887, and in a letter to the Secretary of that body dated October 28th. As a reason for taking this step, he affirmed that the Union was tolerating error, and permitting a downward tendency of ministers in points of doctrine, in that some persons were allowed to remain in it who make light of the atonement, deny the personality of the Holy Ghost, call the fall of man a fable, speak slightingly of justification by faith, refuse credence to the dogma of the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, and hold that there is another probation after death, with possibilities of a future retribution of the lost. While efforts to induce him to reconsider his decision were without avail, be declared that he remained as much a Baptist as ever—his denominationalism not being affected by his relations with the Union, a voluntary, unofficial body.
     
    #12 tyndale1946, Jun 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
  13. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,073
    Likes Received:
    101
    It had no effect in the United States, which by then was the major seat of Baptists, the English Baptists having dwindled considerably.

    It was a big deal in England, whose small Baptist community was further rent by the Downgrade Controversy. http://www.spurgeon.org/downgrd.php

    To this day folks will argue that Spurgeon's withdrawal from the Baptist Union hastened its slide and those who believe there was no way to maintain relations with liberal churches that denied basic doctrines. God only knows who is correct, but the stress may have hastened Spurgeon's death.
     
    #13 rsr, Jun 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    rsr... I want to thank you for that interesting article and I agree it may have hastened Spurgeon's death... And you are right only God knows!... Just something I never knew before... You learn something every day... Brother Glen
     
  15. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,073
    Likes Received:
    101
    We should all learn something every day, no matter our age. Thank you, Brother Glenn.
     
  16. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    God Bless you my Brother In Jesus Christ!... Brother Glen
     
  17. Bro. James

    Bro. James
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,633
    Likes Received:
    14
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A short kibbitz regarding New Testament /church History: there are some out here who take the beginnings of New Testament Churches back to the shores of Galilee and Mt. 4:19, "Come follow me, I will make you fishers of men." This is Jesus calling out the apostles, the ekklesia, the called out for a purpose, long before Pentecost. The succession is not apostolic but rather from a Faith and Practice handed down in every generation even through today--whatever the name. See the Book of Jude. "...The Faith, once for all delivered to the saints."

    The problem with Church History is trying to make it conform to the New Advent Encyclopedia. True Baptists never had anything to do with Rome nor her daughters. The Book of Acts shows the history as well as the faith and practice. A lot of folk seem to get seriously confused in Acts 2.

    One does not need a ThD to understand.

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     

Share This Page

Loading...