Views of Baptist Origins

Yes Brother Clint I agree with you 100% and in the family of God what people of various ages of time held to that sound doctrine. Their names may have changed but according to the word of God the doctrine remains the same from generation to generation until The Son Of God returns...Good point!... Brother Glen

 

Dear Brethren,

Speaking of the General Baptists, I'm not sure about the present General Baptists, but all of the older ones believed in Baptist Succession. J.H. Woods is one example. He wrote a history of the Baptists around 1850. There were several other General Baptist historians before him that also held this view, but I can't remember their names. I will try and post them later.

 

I'm unfamiliar with that term what is meant by Baptist Succession? I've never heard it used in the Primitive Baptist Church!... Brother Glen

 

A very interesting link was given above about the genealogy of the Primitive Baptist Church over the last 2,000 years. In a sense something similar to that is no doubt true, as all churches of today probably have some links to christianity of 2,000 years ago. But I think what was meant by the authors of that site is that there is an unbroken link of Baptist doctrine over the last 2,000 years. They certainly did not prove that, by any means. Let's consider below the last entries in their chain, as follows:

"Link 12. Hillcliff Church was organized by Aaron Arlington, 987 A. D. Alex Muston's Israel of the Alps, page 39.

Link 13. Hillcliff Church, Wales, England, ordained H. Roller, who came to the Philadelphia Association from the Hillcliff church. Minutes of the Philadelphia Association. Book 3, item 1."
---------------------------------
Philadelphia did not exist until about 1700, so the length of time between link 12 and 13 is at least 700 years. What was the nature of the church at Hillcliff, if one existed during all that time? That is the key question. I suspect that during those 700 years, there probably was a considerable period of time when it was under the control of the Pope in Rome, if it existed at all. Surely I don't think anyone would contend that it had a Baptist sign on the door during all that 700 years. I also note that the creator of the web site mentioned that he was trying to confirm this information, as it was worked up by an elder Arial West in Texas. It seems to me that the claim is far from proven. Actually, the language has changed so much in the last 1,000 years, that I wonder if there was any place name of Hillcliff in 987 A.D.

 

The issue of Hillcliff Church, Wales, England, in Bro. Tyndale's link has long been a assertion of Baptist Sucessionists of Baptists being around before 1609. The problem is where is the evidence? If I remember, Thomas Crosby the oldest Baptist historian makes no mention of it. Henry C. Vedder states the only evidence is that a church of some kind existed there but no evidence of what kind of church Hillcliff was. I don't believe Joseph Ivemey includes this church either (???) in his history and Torbet traces Welsh Baptists to the English Baptists.

Bro. Graves stated,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Speaking of the General Baptists, I'm not sure about the present General Baptists, but all of the older ones believed in Baptist Succession. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the first Generation of General Baptists didn't.

John Smyth stated, “I deny all succession except in the truth ...There is no succession in the outward church, but that all succession is from heaven.” Thomas Helwys made similar statements also.

Smyth is right that all succession is from the truth as Armitage stated “Such evidence cannot be traced by any Church on earth, and would be utterly worthless if it could, because the real legitimacy of Christianity must be found in the New Testament, and nowhere else.

In another quote it is stated,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "The stream of Baptist history shows clearly that all Baptist movements have had their stem in the work of Smyth and Helwys"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is much truth in that but it leaves out the fact that Smyth and Helwys were very much influenced by the Dutch Anabaptists. That is the flaw of the English Separatist view of Baptist history. The stem of Baptists resides in the teachings of the Apostles and that groups such as the Albigences, Waldenses, Lollards, Anabaptists as well as Baptists saw as their foundation with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone of all such Churches that build on this foundation. Baptists do have their physical lineage beginning in 1609 but our spiritual lineage traces us to the Apostolic churches.

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

Tyndale1946, I wonder if you realize how weak is the evidence from that link that you posted that claimed to trace Baptist history back 2,000 years. Even the author of the website did not seem to be convinced of its validity. Do you have any other evidence of the nature of the church at Hillcliff during that mysterious 700 year period, back to the 10th century?

 

I trace my Baptist History by doctrine and to the people of various ages that held to the same doctrine! Anyone can make a claim that they can trace their church history to the true church. Look at the Catholic Church that says they are the true church.

The true church has to be traced by doctrine as Brother Clint pointed out that I lost sight of. Doctrine supersedes anything else and when that Apostalic doctrinal trail is traced I believe one will find the true church!... What is truth?... Brother Glen

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

If I have offended any of my Christian Brethren here please cast a mantle of charity over me. My intention is not to deceive but to present the doctrine of Jesus Christ according to sound doctrine. The scriptures state If the trumpet make an uncertain sound who shall prepare himself to battle. We are all seekers of truth and like Brother Clint said he wanted to know the truth even if he was in error.

Wester what you are implying is that the doctrine that Jesus Christ set up there was a break in it somehere along the line. I don't believe any Brethren on this site believe that. There has to be a continuous flow of sound doctrine that is here now that can be traced back to the Son Of God.

Our Spiritual lineage has to be traced by sound doctrine and the doctrinal footprints of the saints of different ages that followed in the doctrinal footprints of Jesus Christ and his Apostles.

Luke 18:8 Nevertheless when the Son of Man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? He will find the same faith that was once delivered unto the saints... Brother Glen

 

Now that was funny!... Brother Glen

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Theological truths must always take precedent over historical perspective. But when theology and history agree, historical perspective compliments truth. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A Welsh Succession of Primitive Baptist Faith and Practice by Elder Michael Ivey

This was just a quote I thought everyone would appreciate and it was in line with the continuous doctrinal path... The article is here for you all to read if you desire... Brother Glen

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Theological truths must always take precedent over historical perspective.
But when theology and history agree, historical perspective compliments
truth.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

In other words, when the historical facts are on your side, argue the facts, but when the facts are against you, argue theology.

 

lidia -

Your profile says that you are Baptist. Do you not think that our faith is a New Testament faith and that it evolved from a succession of true New Testament faiths over the last two milleniums?

Welcome to the board

- Clint

 

This topic was sabotaged by some trolls back when it was active better than a year and a half ago. We got rid of the trolls but the thread, absently, remained closed and got archived. I ran across it and thought it would be a good one to blow off the dust and reactivate. Enjoy!

 

Hi, all - very interesting discussion on Baptist history "successionism" - but I didn't note any reference to Leonard Verduin, the Reformed scholar of the 20th Century whose "The Reformers and Their Stepchildren" documents our ancestors as well as any Baptist historian ever has! If I had known of Verduin when I wrote my little booklet years ago, there would have been several citations/quotations. This is now published by
Christian Hymnary Publishers, POB 7159, Pinecraft, Sarasota FL 34278. Charles Blair

 

For some reason the computer seems to delight in throwing my replies into some other forum! The one above on Verduin was in response to another discussion. HOWEVER, since I've now read this one where my reply is improperly posted, let me add on early Baptists in England a work now out of print, but available in some libraries and used book sources: J&gt; J&gt; Goadby, "Bye-Paths in Baptist History," my copy not dated but published in New York by "Bible and Publication Society." He deals with Hill Cliffe, etc., and especially the 1500's. Charles Blair