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Virgin of Zapopan

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Bro. Curtis, Aug 8, 2003.

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  1. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Article

    Also this...

    On October 12, a procession honoring Our Lady of Zapopan celebrates the feast day of the Virgin of Zapopan. Around dawn, her small, dark figure begins the 5-hour ride from the Cathedral of Guadalajara to the suburban Basilica of Zapopan. The original icon dates from the mid-1500s; the procession began 200 years later. Today, crowds spend the night along the route and vie for position as the Virgin approaches. She travels in a gleaming new car (virginal in that it must never have had the ignition turned on), which her caretakers pull through the streets. During the previous months, the figure visits churches all over the city. You will likely see neighborhoods decorated with paper streamers and banners honoring the Virgin's visit.

    The celebration has grown into a month-long event, Fiestas de Octubre, which kicks off with an enormous parade, usually on the first Sunday (or possibly Sat) of the month. Festivities include performing arts, rodeos (charreadas), bullfights, art exhibits, regional dancing, a food fair, and a Day of Nations incorporating all the consulates in Guadalajara. By the time this is over, you enter the holiday season of November and December, with Revolution Day (Nov 20), the Virgin of Guadalupe's saint's day (Dec 12), and several other celebrations. There's always something going on from September to December.
    From here

    And this...

    "In 1734, Guadalajara was being wiped out by a plague. The little virgin was brought into town and carried up and down the streets, block by block, until every section of the city was covered. As the tiny image passed the houses of the sick people, they were immedialtely cured and arose from their sick beds to go about their work. For this reason the Virgin is called the patron saint of all plagues, as well as of storms and lightnings." The other side of Rome, John Wilder

    And this is from Newsweek, June 7, 1957...
    "The title of queen was bestowed on her in January of 1921, when she was crowned with a crown of gold. In January, 1940, by direction of Pope Pius XII, the sanctuary of La Virgincita was elevated to the dignity, title, and category of a Minor Basilica."

    "What does basilica mean?

    Historically, a basilica was the meeting hall of the Roman world where law was administered and public speaking events held. As Christianity took hold in the West, large churches were given the name basilica. In canon law, the term "basilica" denotes a distinguished church upon which either ancient custom or papal decree has bestowed that name as a title of honor. The pope may confer basilican rank in the minor degree to churches whose merit warrant such high honor, as in the case of the Basilica of the Assumption.

    To honor the great history of this cathedral, Pope Pius XI raised the Baltimore cathedral to the rank of a minor basilica on Sept. 1, 1937. Thus the Basilica of the Assumption has the right to display the papal bell, the tintinnabulum, and the papal umbrella, the conopoeum."
    http://www.catholicreview.org/articles2/basic/Whatdoesbasilicamean.htm

    Can you say, Pagan Idolatry ?
     
    #1 Bro. Curtis, Aug 8, 2003
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Brother Curtis,

    Did they happen to mention Jesus?

    I may have missed something. If Jesus were in the form of an image and in this procession, He probably followed Mary in a mule drawn carriage, with fewer celebrating in His death at the Cross and His endless intercession for us. [Hebrew 7:25; I John 2:1-2]

    I think especially in Italy there is much more adoration of the mother of God than God Himself.

    Yes, I too can agree and say that it is pagan idolatry.
     
    #2 Ray Berrian, Aug 8, 2003
  3. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Yes I can. I agree. Pagan Idolotry.
     
    #3 dianetavegia, Aug 8, 2003
  4. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    What did they use before the invention of the automobile? How exactly would they consider a carriage 'virginal'? [​IMG]

    In my experience the Catholic Church in many 'third world' countries has been alot of 'hocus pocus' and YES I can say......

    PAGAN IDOLATRY.
     
    #4 3AngelsMom, Aug 8, 2003
  5. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Pagan idolatry, with a thumb's up from the pope himself.

    Inerrant Church ? [​IMG]

    Also, do a google search on the Virgin of Guadalupe, another plastic doll considered worthy of prayer. And people have to pay to see her, too.
     
    #5 Bro. Curtis, Aug 9, 2003
  6. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Doesn't "idolatry" require "worship"? I don't see any worship of this statue mentioned in the article, let alone endorsed by the Pope. Yes, I suppose some individuals would be worshipping the statue, and thus that would be "pagan idolatry", but those people would be in contrast to official Catholic teaching. I will not judge the Catholic Church based on those who do opposite to what it teaches, just as I don't form my opinion on other groups (including Baptists) based on people who get that wrong too. You have to examine any group by their official teachings, not by those who don't understand or go against those teachings.

    I find the mention of miraculous events related to this very interesting. Do you think healings actually took place?

    Bro. Curtis, I've seen you make similar statements several times on this forum. I have never ever (ever) seen a claim from the Catholics that the Catholic Church is inerrant. In fact, I repeatedly find them affirming the opposite. Where do you get this idea from, why do you keep repeating it? Is it a deliberate straw-man, or are you confused about what "Papal infallibility" is about?
     
    #6 BrianT, Aug 9, 2003
  7. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    How can you possibly deny that these peolpe worship this doll ?

    Inerrant should mean inerrant. As in doesn't make mistakes. Evidence, plain and readily available, should at least get some people thinking, I pray, that perhaps the RCC isn't what it claims to be. Your pope dedicated a cathedral built for a dressed up doll. And one in Guadalupe, also. Built to house a doll, encased in glass, where people crawl, offer a tribute, (money) and pray to her.

    Edited to add...

    Substitute infallible for inerrant. Infallible means can't make mistakes.
     
    #7 Bro. Curtis, Aug 9, 2003
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As already noted on previous threads - on this topic - the "pagan claim" made BY pagans is the SAME as the RC claim. They "claim" that their prayers, statues, candles, alms, altars ARE not worship OF the altar or worship OF the image - they are worship of the one it "represents".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #8 BobRyan, Aug 9, 2003
  9. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Because I am unable to read hearts and minds. [​IMG] I already said that maybe some do. But I also said that is not official Catholic practice.

    I know what it means. I was asking you where the Catholic Church claimed inerrancy (or infallibility, due to your edit). I smell a very large man made of straw. [​IMG] Again, it appears either you are deliberately setting up straw men, or you are very confused about what the Catholic Church says about infallibility.

    Brian
     
    #9 BrianT, Aug 9, 2003
  10. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    Brian, they're having so much fun clucking and tsk-tsk'ing, surely you're not going to spoil it for them! [​IMG]
     
    #10 MikeS, Aug 9, 2003
  11. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Based on this, we better shun Flag Day too. Wouldn't want anyone worshipping the flag, since that is clearly what they do. Oh, when there is a parade, we worship the floats also.
     
    #11 GraceSaves, Aug 9, 2003
  12. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Pretty weak analogy. People don't crawl on their knees, or get charged money to salute a flag. The pope hasn't built a cathedral for our flag.

    You guys sure are funny, though.
     
    #12 Bro. Curtis, Aug 10, 2003
  13. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    People don't carry our flag up and down streets hoping to stop floods. Even the most gung-ho Marine Captain doesn't believe our flag has healing powers.

    Seriously, guys, is that the best you will offer ?
     
    #13 Bro. Curtis, Aug 10, 2003
  14. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Pulling at straws are we?

    A woman touched Jesus' cloak in faith. In faith she was healed for only touching his cloak.
     
    #14 Brother Adam, Aug 10, 2003
  15. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    PBS had a special on the other night and a segment included following people on a pilgrimage to a shrine for a dead priest. People handed money to another priest and then crawled through the tiny table legs of the table that holds his glass topped coffin, kisses the coffin 3 times and asks for a certain prayer to be answered/ miracle to be performed.

    This is pagan and this is idolotry! Those poor misguided souls will die in ignorance because of the Catholic church.

    Diane
     
    #15 dianetavegia, Aug 10, 2003
  16. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    I would probably shy away from using a PBS documentary in proving the CC practices idolatry as much as I would Jack Chick. It's pretty hard to take it seriously.
     
    #16 Brother Adam, Aug 10, 2003
  17. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    No offense, but it's hard to take these weak rebuttals seriously. It's laughable, actually.

    Do you believe these dolls have powers to heal ? Would you pay money to see one ? Why not ? If the pope OKed it it has to be right, I mean he is inerrant and all.

    Do you really believe the hem of Christ's garment and a dressed up doll belong in the same conversation ?
     
    #17 Bro. Curtis, Aug 10, 2003
  18. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Curtis and all who posted here,

    I pray that you might open yourself to the wisdom of God and understand. God's judgements are not hasty; neither should ours be.

    Amen.
     
    #18 GraceSaves, Aug 10, 2003
  19. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Possibly. They are articles of faith. There is no reason to think that God can't work through our simple faith in mysterious and amazing ways.

    Imagine you lived in the time of Christ. What would your reaction be if someone "raised the dead" or "turned water into wine"?

    Is it that hard to believe God doesn't work through our simple, sometimes misguided faith? (I know my own faith is not in perfection).

    I think I would need to know more about these instances of dolls and such before making a judgement. What we do know about the news is that most of it is untrustworthy. My parents taught me not to believe 90% of what I hear on the news.
     
    #19 Brother Adam, Aug 10, 2003
  20. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Read my last two replies and just pretend I'm saying it again. [​IMG]

    BTW, I once heard of a man who made a serpent out of bronze, and put it on a stick, and anyone who looked at it was healed of their snake bites. Pretty wacky stuff. [​IMG]
     
    #20 BrianT, Aug 10, 2003
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