Voices from the Silent Centuries

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Amity, Jan 29, 2005.

  1. Amity

    Amity
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    Has anyone read this book by Harry Rimmer (1933)? It's really cool. I'm still only about halfway through, but wanted to share something with ya'll.

    And please forgive my obnoxiously childlike excitement right now but this is so cool! What I’ve read does not only solidify the fact that the earliest Christians had the New Testament available to them, but that it was the EXACT word for word accuracy that we have today!! In this book I’m reading, the New Testament that is currently available to us is referred to as the “English translation of 1611" (aka - the King James Bible).

    Okay, now for a little history/archaeology lesson.....the common people in the first several centuries AD spoke and wrote in Koine Greek. The scholars used what is known as Attic Greek. It is known that Paul and the rest, wrote in the Koine Greek because it was their intent to reach the masses, rather than the scholars only. Now, the common people couldn’t afford papyra or parchments, so they would write on “ostraca” or shards of broken pottery that were prevalently available.

    In 1897 a major discovery was made amongst houses of common folk in several ruined ancient cities, of scriptures and prayers written on these ostraca.

    “Here again we listen with considerable reverence to the voices of the ostraca once more. They can testify as no living voice would be able to do, as they quote the Greek text in Greek, from the century that witnessed the origin of that text. And when we compare our present text with these witnesses from antiquity, we find that they always quote the words of the text EXACTLY as we have it today. We do not mean in isolated instances, but consistently, verse after verse by the scores and the hundreds the agreement is so exact as to be absolutely without exception. So if our present Greek text agrees with the text as it was commonly accepted and currently quoted in the first three centuries, we have its credibility established beyond any doubt whatever, reasonable or otherwise!.......Once more the inference is inescapable; if the early century writers could QUOTE our text, they HAD our text. So from the crucible of criticism the New Testament emerges gleaming with a golden radiance even greater than it has always possessed, as the dross of prejudiced criticism has melted in the fervent heat of established fact. Note this fact well, and never forget it: the teacher who today casts doubt on the credibility of the NT text, is either so ignorant as to be unworthy of the name teacher, or is so blinded by hatred for the truth as to forfeit all right to hearing and respect.”

    I found some of the prayers and scriptures of the common folk found on these shards of pottery so comforting and telling:

    “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. Oh thou, who art the father of our Lord, the Living Word, hear the prayer of thy handmaid Thecla and heal her in body and soul for Jesus’ sake.”

    And again, a prayer of a mother who wrote these words:

    “My Father, who art in Heaven, hear the prayer of thy handmaid Johanna and heal her son for the sake of Him who said, ‘Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven’.”

    Verse by verse and line by line, the shrouds of pottery discovered are assembled to recapitulate 84% of the New Testament!!!

    So we see, that the common Christians even outside of the rule of the church of Rome, had scripture available to them from the very beginning of the age of Grace!! Amen!!! That’s just cool!!
     
  2. HankD

    HankD
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    Amen Amity!

    There is no book in antiquity which has the vast historical evidences as the Old and New Testaments.

    New discoveries are continually being added.

    HankD
     
  3. Craigbythesea

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    I just had the most horrible nightmare of my life!!! I dreamed that Amity posted: :

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Amity

    Amity
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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I don't know whether to keep laughing or get mad.

    Oh, you fellas are too much!! [​IMG] :D
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Which King James Version do you use?
    Here is a sample test:

    1. Ruth III:15d (KJV1611):

    ... and he went into the citie.

    2. Ruth 3:15 (KJV1769):

    ... and she went into the city.

    3. Ruth 3:15 (KJV1873):

    ... and he went into the city.

    I note that most KJV electronic sources
    are from the KJV1769. Upon request i'll
    dentoe the diffrences in some on-line
    KJVs.
     
  6. Amity

    Amity
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    I'm sure there's plenty of other threads on that, Ed....I'd appreciate this stay on topic. But just to answer your question (and please, please, please, let's keep this on the OP after that) I use the AV1611...which has been updated, not revised.

    My Ruth 3:15 says "and she went into the city"

    now back to your regularly scheduled OP......
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Make that 1936

    About the Joshua's Missing Day Found,
    Urban eLgend.

    found at:

    http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/longDayProof.htm

    CHRISTIAN COURIER

    //Totten’s testimony has been repeated often. It was incorporated into Sidney Collett’s little volume (valuable in many respects), All About the Bible (New York: Fleming Revell, 1933, pp. 285-286), and then later (1936) the story was published in Harry Rimmer’s popular book, A Harmony of Science and Scripture (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956 ed., pp. 281-282).

    //In 1970, the narrative took on a new, more modern twist. Articles began to appear in various publications affirming that a gentleman named Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Co. in Baltimore, and a “space consultant,” was in possession of data out of the Goddard Space Center that provided essentially the same information as found in Totten’s story of eighty years earlier.//

    I had a copy of Harold Hill's book where he claimes
    this happened in one of Hill's owned contractor to
    NASA. The whole story makes no sense in computer
    lingo. I doubt if it made much sense in Totten's
    time either.

    Sorry, i have a problem with links in the
    tracing of Urban Legends ...
    Recommend rejoicing in Christ Jesus
    and cutting out the fakers who propagate
    urban legends.

    Philippians 3:3 (KJV1611):
    For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and reioyce in Christ Iesus, and haue no confidence in the flesh.
     
  8. Trotter

    Trotter
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    Amity,

    Corect me if I'm wrong, but are you taelling us that all these fragments supposedly lined up with the 1611? Well, the underlying Greek used for it?

    Hmmm...I wonder how all these people from the first century got ahold of Erasmus' compilation...or maybe they used the same source texts...was the Vulgate around back then?

    :rolleyes:

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  9. Amity

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    Ed, the book from 1936 you are referring to is a totally different book by Harry Rimmer. The book I have in my hand right now is Voices from the Silent Centuries by Harry Rimmer, c.1933.

    Trotter, I'm saying that the texts that were used to translate our Bible into english were copies of exactly the same scriptures as the Koine Greek texts that were taught to these common folk that would copy scriptures onto their pottery shards in the first few centuries AD. Are you telling me that the NT was never even penned before the 300's? C'mon!!! The Apostles who wrote the books of the NT were already dead! :rolleyes: back at ya.


    Now, be nice. [​IMG] It's Saturday night, the kids are asleep and I'm in a good mood. No fightin' fellas. :D

    God bless. [​IMG]
     
  10. Trotter

    Trotter
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    No, no fighting. That's what I thought you were saying.

    Of course the texts they had are the same as the ones we have.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    There is much patristic writing and yes, even shards of pottery, that use the same words and phrases found in the Greek texts underlying our English translations.

    All English translations.

    And there are greek codices, uncials, and fragments of writing as well as complete manuscripts from those early days too. It is exciting to see.

    But remember - just because the Greek texts we use today are reflected in those early witnesses, it DOES NOT FOLLOW that any translation of those good Greek words into any language is worth 2 cents! That is a totally unrelated matter.
     
  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy
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    Quoting Rimmer: "“Here again we listen with considerable reverence to the voices of the ostraca ...from the century that witnessed the origin of that text.

    Rimmer is not exactly the most credible source, and is rarely cited today since his apologetic enthusiasm tends to allow him to get carried away far more than one would find in Josh McDowell or Norman Geisler.

    First of all, *none* of the ostraca come from the first century "that witnessed the origin of that [NT] text". They all tend to come from the 3rd or 4th century AD. This can be verified by consulting Gregory's _Textkritik_ volume. The same goes for the various Talismen containing NT scripture portions, ranging from the 4th century onward (Metzger).

    Rimmer: "And when we compare our present text with these witnesses from antiquity, we find that they always quote the words of the text EXACTLY as we have it today. We do not mean in isolated instances, but consistently, verse after verse by the scores and the hundreds the agreement is so exact as to be absolutely without exception."

    Such a dogmatic claim ("absolutely without exception") is easily falsifiable simply by examining the data. Example: an ostracon fragment in the British Museum contains several verses from 1Jn, and presents a number of divergencies from the TR/KJV tradition. Q.E.D., Rimmer's claim is wrong.

    Methinks that Rimmer "darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge...." :cool:
     
  13. Amity

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    I have to chuckle, reading through here. :D This is something I'm just beginning to study up on because on my home board where one of the forums is dedicated to evangelizing catholics, we have a few that say the common folk did not have scripture available to them until 600 years ago. They say that the scriptures were ONLY available in "apostolic sucession" :rolleyes: within the church.... For a second here I thought I was debating romanists....this is a baptist board, right? :D Heeheee, anyway, just thought ya'll would find this cool and thought I'd share. Thanks for everyone's insight. I know there are a ton of sources out there on individual topics that contradict each other.

    Makes me think....I'm so glad God doesn't contradict Himself in the Word....then we'd all need ThD's as a prerequisite to faith. Guess all other topics are "open game" for the intellectually challenged to be, well, ummmm...challenged. [​IMG]


    Ya'll have a great day. [​IMG]
    Love in Christ.
    Amity
    Psalm 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

    God bless.
     
  14. mioque

    mioque
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    I'm surprised that Harry Rimmer, who was something of a flim-flam artist, staunchly OEC and certainly not KJVO is still popular in some Fundie circles nowadays.
     
  15. Amity

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    I know nothing of his background, only that a sister in Christ recommended one of his books to me. Guess I'm finding out more as I go along. [​IMG]
     
  16. mioque

    mioque
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    Vol. 6. The Antievolution Pamphlets of Harry Rimmer by Edward B. Davis, Ed. 1995. xxxiv + 482 pages, introductions. $84.00.

    Davis has done exceptional work in evaluating Rimmer's life and influence and in detailing the publishing history of the antievolution pamphlets reprinted in this work. Rimmer (1890-1952), raised in a troubled west coast family and lacking significant formal education, took the advice of a friend to "read science." Converted at a street meeting by a student who later became a medical missionary, Rimmer would look to "the sidewalk evangelist with an interest in science as the model for his own life." His work with the YMCA placed him in contact with college students who were increasingly faced with anti-Christianity in their classrooms. Davis argues that Rimmer's first target was the biblical critics rather than evolutionists but this changed by the early 20s when he, and other conservatives saw evolution as "a principal cause of unbelief in the Bible and the gospel message it conveyed." Rimmer's books (300,000 at one publisher) and heavy national speaking schedule at Bible conferences, churches, and colleges made him a leading force in conservative Christianity. His claims to scientific expertise and willingness to argue with scientists attracted those who lacked scientific background. However, the emergence of scientifically literate evangelicals after WWII would drastically reduce his influence. Davis duly notes the debt that recent creationists such as Henry Morris owe to Rimmer, yet ironically "with its strict requirements that members have postgraduate degrees in science, the Creation Research Society would bar the door to the one man, who more than anyone else, showed how to be `a scientific creationist.'" Sixteen pamphlets are reprinted.
    http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1995/PSCF9-95Haas.html
     

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